Breaking the Silence: Parenthood and Teen Substance Abuse - A Journey of Resilience, Hope, and Healing

Welcome back to between the before and after a podcast about the stories that shape us. I'm your host, Coach Jon McLernon. Each episode, I bring you an inspiring guest with a moving story that shines a light on the power of the human spirit. I'm excited to share this story with you. So let's dive in. So imagine you have a life that um maybe on the outside looks like uh the ideal married two kids, successful careers. Everything's going well. And then as Marsha describes it, a monster enters the picture and blows everything up. 

This is Marsha's story about dealing with teen substance abuse. So Marsha, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, John. I'm thrilled to be here. Absolutely. And before we dive into your story, which is a really very powerful one. 

And, and I'm, I, I often say I'm excited to share it and it's, it's I say I'm excited because I think it's a powerful story. It's gonna help a lot of people when they hear it. Um But I'd like to let people know kind of what it, what it is you're up to now because you, you've had, uh, quite a, quite a varied path as well. Yeah. What I'm doing right now is a whole lot of different things but really helping people to own and share their vulnerable stories. I have clients who are writing books, who are starting podcasts, who are speaking on stages. 

I'm doing all of those things and have done all of those things and, um, as well, I've spent the last two years finishing my N LP, my neurolinguistics programming, um practitioners, masters and trainers. So now I can train people on how to use those tools. And those tools helped me to heal so much that I tried to just skip over from the last decade. That's what I, it was, it was the work I didn't know I needed and I did it for me, not for my business, but it actually, it, it's a disservice to not bring it into the work that I do. So I, yeah, I use those tools as well and uh you know, N LP um probably has certain assumptions around it. Um There's a lot of people who maybe don't understand the idea of neurolinguistics programming in a nutshell. How would you describe it as a tool? 

How I would describe it as a tool is like we have two parts to our brain. Technically, our conscious brain is responsible for 1 to 5% of what we think. So it's like our goal setter. It's what we set goals with and our subconscious mind is responsible for 95 to 99% of what we think. And most of that was determined before the age of seven. And so we're in this space where we are holding onto thoughts, stories, beliefs that we repeat every single day without even realizing it. And our thoughts are very powerful. So when I started to look at this, like our subconscious mind is the goal getter and not bringing your subconscious mind into the work that you're doing, or at least recognizing like where your blind spots are, is is gonna keep you on a loop of frustratingly not hitting the goals that you've set out for yourself. And so that's the work is really understanding the power of your thoughts and your words because all of those things create like your beliefs, your actions, your decisions, what you choose to do and the identity that you hold. And that's the piece is, is that we're constantly trying to change habits, but without changing our identity and that's where it starts. 

You know, I love that you mentioned that because I think when James Clare wrote the book Atomic Habits, um he popularized a concept originally from Charles Doig, which was the power of habit. And so then, then habits and habit based coaching, which believe me, I use these tools in my, in my coaching, but they, they sort of became the thing like you just sort of reprogram your brain but you had something really, really important. And that is that unless we have a shift in who we see ourselves to be, our brain is always going to steer us back to being that person. And I like to think about beliefs, like, um kind of like a filter for a brain that tell us, uh they, they kind of instruct our brain what to pay attention to and what to disregard. And we form, you know, cognitive biases and confirmation biases. And uh without even realizing it. And unless we bring into our conscious awareness, our, our current sense of identity and things we very often don't think about, especially in this modern digital world filled with distraction. Um It's going to be nearly impossible and then we're gonna wonder what is wrong with us and then we start telling ourselves a story about here's why I'm so flawed and can't do this and we're, we're just missing something really crucial. So I love that you're, that you're diving into this work. 

Well, thank you for um that feedback because I, I think it's just, it's, it's so incredibly important. Like we are bombarded all day long, like all day long by millions and millions of bits of information. And our brain's job is to literally delete distort and generalize. That's the only way we can cope. It's too much content. And so it's, if we don't realize that the filters that we have are based on old stories. 

You know, it's funny because we will just keep recreating the same scenario over and over again. I've done it and then it's like, but that's not what I want. It's like, but that's what I'm seeing. So you have to make, I Carl Young said it and I don't do the quote justice, but we have to make our unconscious conscious in order to create a change. So we have to bring up those stories, look at the root of them and consciously start to catch them pattern, interrupt and create change. I I call it rustle or demons in the light because um very often bringing these into our conscious awareness can be uncomfortable because when we're looking at creating change, we're also looking at things that we do that are, that are unhelpful and behaviors that even can be quite destructive. And there's often a sense of shame and guilt and these powerful uh difficult emotions around these things. And this is why I think in the work that I do and I imagine the work that you do as well. 

I think compassion plays such a central role in, in what we do. The ability to look at things. This lens of compassion, which is not a lens of enabling but a lens of understanding. Hm. And it exactly what you're saying, I mean, I would say compassion has been probably self compassion has been probably one of the most important things I've learned in this last decade and it's still something that I work on every single day because the slippery slope for me subconsciously is to just be hard on myself. Like, just, just, it's just the norm. It's like I put my head down, do the work can be hard of myself, but it doesn't necessarily, well, it never creates change and it only brings me back to where it was so, so many times I'll say lens to myself, it's like, what lens do you have on today? Like what lens are you looking at this with? 

You know, I often say every single story, you can tell it a different way based on what lens you are applying with my own story. For the longest time, I had the lens that I had failed as a parent, I had failed. And this was a mistake that I had done something wrong obviously. And it took a long time to start to change that and recognize that no, that lens is not serving me and it's not allowing me to create any change. But I'm still the only person who can change the lens. 

I love that and, and I love just this idea of even recognizing our filters. Um I think in social media, a lot of people like apply filters to their images. And um so they're seeing something that's not really an accurate representation. And so, and, and a lot of this comes from as we chatted before we started recording, uh, early, early childhood and we have this sort of this unawareness and I mean, and as a father or a toddler with another one, the way I, I, I now feel so aware that I have this, this, I have a two year old and I'm like, get 55 more years. And, uh, you know, and then another one in the way, like you get the 1st, 1st 7 years and I think in particular, the first four years are so, so important if we, and so I'm very conscious about like how I behave around my son, what he, what he sees me do and whatnot. Um But I want, I wanna dive into your, your story here. And so if we were to sort of paint a little bit of a, a background picture because we're gonna get into your, your story of dealing with um teen substance abuse as a mother. But um prior, prior to leading up to this, um what, what was life like for you? Um What, what did you do professionally? 

I was a registered Kines ologist. So I worked in um post rehab, primarily helping people through injuries. Um Everything from back pain to surgery, to learning to walk again. A lot of coaching, mentoring mindset work that I didn't even know was mindset work at the time. And that was my full time job and I loved it. It was very much something that it was very demanding. 

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sugar coat that one because I would show up for my clients five days a week at 5 30 to 6 AM. So my day would start serving everyone else and then it would go from there to maybe fitting myself in then fitting the kids in doing all of their activities. It took, you know, people would say put yourself first. I'm like how I'm starting my morning, like at work at 5 30 in the morning, five days a week. And it was, it was, it was definitely had its challenges. But I did like what I did. Um And that was, you know, we had moved a few times and we ended up moving into kno area. 

My husband's job, moved us here and we, we loved the area. But I, I would say up until we started to experiencing this life was pretty normal. We were also our kids were very active in sports, very active in competitive sports. We were that family was traveling to all different kinds of sports and activities. So what lie ahead of us was never on my radar. Um So I'm curious actually, where did you, where did you meet your husband? Uh high school? We're one of those, we are one of those couples that we started dating at 16. And yeah, we did. And um so I've grown up with his family, his family is like my second family and Um, yeah, we went to high school together and when we finished high school, which was now going to be like 1988 89. 

Um, we made the agreement that we would not, um, share our university applications with each other. It's like if it's meant to work it's meant to work. You do your thing, I'll do my thing. And we did. Yeah, we did. So, as 18 year olds, I think that was pretty, um, I wouldn't say responsible but we just, we felt, yeah, very for thinking because I had a lot of friends, you know, they're trying to get in their, their roommates with their friends and their, I'm like, no, I, if this is gonna work it's gonna work. 

So, my number one choice was Kine at and his number one choice was business at LA. We just didn't know that until we, no agreement. We'd agreed to not even discuss it until everything was out in the mail. Right. And, and so for those who might be listening south of the border, um, these are two universities that are in southern Ontario which is, uh, a southeastern part of Canada, very close to the border with, like, Maine and, uh, Michigan and what not, right in the same, in the same city. Yeah, we didn't know that. 

Which is, which is, is really fascinating. What's, um, it's kind of interesting to look back but what, what drew you to him in the first place and because I know, I think what, how we evolve as human beings, right? Because you're definitely not the same people now. But, you know, what was it originally just, uh, you know, a physical attraction or was there something about him that you're like? Hm. This guy's different. I, I would say, um, as my 16 year old self, I would say definitely physical was there. 

Um, also he was a athlete and then again, loves sports. We both love sports. Um He was also somebody who always seemed to understand who I was and didn't try to change me, like didn't try. Like just I think that that's the, and that's always been the case. Like that would say that's always been the case. 

We've always believed that like, we both are responsible for being our best self and then we bring our best self together. And so that might sound very strange for some people. But he, I would say that was a big part of it is that he let me be who I am. And I think that's the foundation of a very solid and secure relationship. And why I think that's fascinating is because I think a lot of people go into relationships trying to find as maybe a sense of validation from the other person and put that responsibility on the other individual that it's your responsibility to make me happy. It's your responsibility to make me feel secure and safe and so on, it's like that, that's not really fair to put that on somebody and then you set up a codependent relationship that really isn't healthy. 

So, I, I love that. Um, and so you've been together for how long now we have been together for 37 years. We are married 30 years this year. And it's, yeah, it's a bit crazy because when I think back to it, you know, we were married in 1993 and in, from 93 to 95 we stood up in so not just attended, but stood up in, um, 10 weddings in those two years and out of those 10, there's two of us that are still together. So it's, it's, I, I, I just want to draw attention because it's like, it's not common. 

Um, yeah, and even, even a lot of the friends that we have had over the years whose kids were our kids, like, I can't even count how many of them split up as soon as the kids left the home. Like, it was just this, it's so we are definitely more of an anomaly and, but we have also walked through some really difficult times together. So, yeah, absolutely. And, and that's why I wanted to paint that paint that picture. Like my wife and I have been together for, for 17 years and I'm hoping for like, at least 50 more. 

That's kind of the goal. Um, and, and yeah, having gone through some incredibly difficult experiences. I think it produces one of two things. Either you, you come closer together or you tear each other apart and, and maybe, and maybe not quite as cut and dry as there's probably try to figure out how to navigate it. Well, and I heard somebody say it years ago, I'm not going to say it the right way. But it's like you either grow together or you grow apart like you like you are not, I'm not even close to the same person that I was um oh probably five years ago, let alone like 30. And so it's, it, I think that we also, we can't expect the other person to like to fit every need of ours. 

I think it's our responsibility to do that. And I do believe you grow together, you grow apart and challenges are gonna come right? Like we're in a space right now where both of his parents are aging and not, well, and we're navigating something that this is brand new territory for us. Um And it's hard and so, you know, how can you be there and support him as he works through a lot of things and at the same time, they're not my blood parents, but they really are my parents. I've had them since I was 16 and, and adore them to pieces. So it's a very, it's a very interesting thing, but I do think that life is gonna continue to throw you challenges. It's like it. I don't, I, I don't think, and again, go back to filters for a second. We spend too much time looking at who are we when everything is going, right? Who are we when? Yeah, when the accolades are adding up when all of the winds are telling? Well, that's great. But I think it's actually more important who you are when things are not working out. great. I think that speaks more volume to who we are as people. And that was something that we have had to navigate and I'm not gonna lie. It was very rocky for a number of, for, for a while. It was actually quite rocky trying to figure out how to navigate something like this. 

I think it's important that you, that you share that as well because there, there may be a temptation like, you know, I guess as a parallel, my wife and uh as a relationship and people see it and see that we have a, we have a really, really solid relationship. Um, but there were times where it was really rough where we probably could have thrown away and might even have felt justified in doing so. But I'm so glad we didn't. Uh, because I, I, I said that we got something that all the money in the world can't buy because I've invested so many years of my life into this relationship. I have someone who, who has seen me at my absolute worst and is like, still committed to being together with me. Like there's no money in the world that could replace that. 

No, I think that that's a beautiful way to say it. Like he's definitely seen me at my worst and I've seen him at his worst and we've had some rough times, but we just really got to a point. Um I mean, there was a point in full transparency where I was like, I'm out, I'm, I can't live like this anymore. This is an absolute gong show here. And it actually as hard as that those times were um it was required because he needed to see firsthand how bad it was. He was working in a different city and it didn't take long before he was like, whoa, like this is, I'm like, oh it's bad. It's like there's no sugar coating, it's bad. And as hard as that was, I had to really work through navigating the story that I walked out on my family. 

I actually had to navigate it to say that I chose me and, and it, I needed to do that to start my path of taking care of me so that he could start doing the same. And that was when we slowly started to come back together. So even though there were some really, really hard times, I mean, even to the point where we've had um you know, we've had to deal with some pretty difficult situations with our kids. But where counselors have come in and asked them like, you know, does your dad treat your mom poorly? No. Does your dad beat? No. Does he do know? Does, do your parents use substances all the time? No. And I remember the counselor at that point saying, so what you're saying is you didn't learn any of these behaviors from your parents. You've chosen this? And that was a very, like, that was a moment. 

I sat there and I was like, hm, that's actually really fascinating. But, you know, we've set an example for our kids in a way that we, we didn't, we could have quit easily, but we chose not to, not out of obligation, but we chose not to. So I think that's a different thing. I, I love that and I love hearing that. I mean, I'm, I'm a fan of marriages that last I think there's something beautiful but, and, and, and this isn't to say that anybody should stay in a, in a, in an abusive relationship and healthy. But I fear that the younger is, makes me feel old too. I'm 41. But you know, the younger generation maybe struggles to put the same value on a lasting relationship when we now live in a world that is so impermanent. Like social media is the never ending now. Like we talk about the brain and it processes 11 million bits of information per second and, and the digital media world is like, trying to drink from a fire hose. And if you ever here, I've been a firefighter and I tell you what a four inch hose, it's like, fully charged. 

Like, it takes four people to hold on to that thing. Uh, it's knocking out right now. So, the way that you described it before we started recording was, it was like a monster entered the picture. So there wasn't really, I mean, was there any clues that there might be this sort of tendency or, or behavior or anything like that or, you know what I mean? Or was it just like normal family life? 

The kids are in sports, things are busy. They're going to school that kind of stuff. I would say it was a fairly um normal time. We were very busy, like our kids were busy and um I was going through some health challenges. I had gone through a full hysterectomy. Then I had had a few other complications and I ended up with like a, a staph infection that I had to have a pick line was in the hospital. It literally came out of nowhere. 

It's not that it didn't come out of nowhere. It's like if you ever want to get sick, go to the hospital and then you'll definitely pick up something which is what happened. And so it was very chaotic. And I remember my, my husband saying to me that I found pot in the house. And I'm like, what? Like, I just was like, I remember literally getting home from the hospital and him telling me, and I'm like, what do you mean you found? 

Like, I don't even understand like our kids are 12 and 13 at that time and just because we found it then is not, that does not mean that's when it started, right. That's like, that's a very big distinction. And so all I remember thinking is like, no chance in hell. This is not happening. Like I'm not, I, I have, I was no stranger to dealing with and seeing firsthand what substances could do to a family, to a person. And I just had this immediate like, no chance are we doing this? 

This is a flat out. No. And so I never approached it that it was a phase, a lot of their friends', parents, like I it was a very strange time because we had a lot of and a bit of a perfect storm. I'm gonna say that because there was a lot of parents at the time who felt it was very normal for them to experiment at 12 years old and so normal so that we'll just let them do it in the house because at least they're safe then. And so imagine now all of a sudden you have parents that you're, you're trying to come across who think it's normal to let the 12 year olds do pot in the house. So I'm actually the problem because I'm, I'm the one who's saying no to everything. And so it was a very bit of a perfect storm during that time. And so a lot of things happened that made it so that the only people who had a problem with what they were doing was mom and dad. Right. So I'm curious, you know, so you hear, hey, we found, I found pot in the house. What was like the first conversation you had? How did you approach that with your boys? Whose is it? And like, of course, it was like, not mine, not mine, not mine. 

It's like the, I could see a bunch of those scenarios happening and in and it was like, oh just, you know, we, we were just experimenting just trying and it's like what's not happening and we throw it out. And so then a couple days later there it was again and we throw it out and we were getting to the point where we were literally throwing out, you know, pot multiple times a week. It didn't take long before we knew it. We were in a situation where they were not coming home, they were leaving out at night. There was money that was missing. They stopped going to school like over a span of a couple of years, that's where we ended up is they would be gone and missing for days on end and no clue where they were. And it's just, I would love to say that it, there was a logical step as to how it went, but there wasn't, it just came in and the more we got rid of it, the faster it turned back up again, which is another sort of fascinating observation. But you said something that to me as a parent, like, kind of sends a shutter down my spine and, and that is like your, your, your boys would disappear for days at a time and you wouldn't know where they are. And you know, I, yes and I, I, I, I don't share this part often, but I do think it's important in the sense that we were in this perfect storm time where, you know, we would bring police in and I would, I knew exactly where they were, there was a, a house that thought again, it was very normal for kids to do it in the house. 

So, and I'm not talking about, we're not talking, this is very important to say and not in a judgment. We're not talking a low income family, we're not talking a high risk family. We're talking what we would consider normal families. They felt it was just better to let them do it in the house. And if the police would get to the house and look for them, the owner of the house would say no, they're not here. And the police would say we have no means to go in so we can't do anything for you. And so the kids would tell us later that, oh yeah, we were always there like that's where we were and the parents would hide them and it was just part of the conversation and it was part of the being normal. And so that was a bit of the perfect storm. And also to have police say, well, this is, you know, this is what happens. 

They'll turn up, I'm sure they'll turn up. So there was a time I remember my one son being around 14 and not having a clue where he was for weeks. It was well, and I think what like being a police officer and having to come back to a parent and say like my hands are time in this, in this situation and for yourself that must have been like this incredibly well. I I don't want, I don't want to put words in your mouth. 

I think 11 feeling I would have would be frustration but heartbreak. Like what's, what sort of emotions run through your mind as you, you think my, my, my 14 year old son is somewhere and don't exactly know where is likely engaged in some kind of substance abuse and I'm helpless to do anything about it. Yeah, I would say the whole gamut of emotions um from at that time, I was so reactive to life and rightfully so they were minor. I was scared to death. Um But I was very reactive and I, all of the emotions like I'm gonna lose them. What's this gonna look like? How is this? How can I fix this? How can I stop this? Um I'm the mindset of, you know, I will turn over every rock possible, which is what, that's who I was and that, so I wasn't afraid of calling police. And unfortunately, we started to build a very good relationship with police officers who knew us, who knew our house, who knew our circumstances. Um And I mean, not to skip over parts of it, but it finally had to get to the point where I recognized that, you know, nothing I was doing was working and I couldn't take responsibility for their choices anymore. 

Which sounds, it's, it, it, it didn't, I didn't get to that conclusion fast. That took me a long time to get there. And then when I did get there, it was like, ok, I cannot own their choices. I cannot do this anymore. They, this has to fall on them. And at that point with our laws in Canada. And I think this is really important because this is not the same in a lot of areas in the States. 

If your kids are under 18 and they are experiencing this, you can take them to a treatment center and they, they have to stay, you can't do that here. You can't even book a doctor's appointment for them over the age of 12 because they legally have the rights to say they don't want to go. And so we were dealing with this perfect storm situation where the schools were gonna pass them regardless if they went or not. The police are like our hands are tied. There's nothing we can do. Um everywhere that we went, they were untouchable. And as my husband says it so beautifully, they had all of the rights but no responsibilities and we had all the responsibilities and no rights. And that's really that sure that like that's quote, summed up our entire life, man. 

I like and I, I just feel the, I think the frustration and the, the sadness that I would feel knowing that you still in your heart of hearts have your children's best interests in heart and you want what's best for them and yet you're, you're helpless in, in all of this situation. And Storm was there ever like a conversation that you had with either of your boys that was kind of like frank and honest where they like what or I guess I'm kind of curious, like what did conversations look like? And were you ever able to have like a, so what felt like maybe in a meaningful one? Oh, wow. That's such a great question. What did they look like? A ton of denial? 

A ton of um they have a lot of anger that this is like mom and dad are the problem. Um, this isn't a big deal. Lots of kids are doing it. Um, we tried to have conversations but I don't know how else to paint this except to say it this way. If you're trying to have regular conversations with somebody who is using a substance, you're not having a conversation. And I don't know how else to paint that except to say it that way. And I don't know how many times my husband would say it's, there's, there's no point right now. Like this, there's no point. 

They're not hearing you, it's not happening. And so when I say, like, we, we literally tried everything we could think of. And even to the point that when we went to see a, when we went to see um substance abuse counselors and, you know, parent group counselors and I felt like such a, a person who, you know, here's my checklist. I've checked off everything you've told me to do. And like, I've done a good job and they would say, yeah, you've done everything we've asked. And I'm like, but I still have the problem. So I don't understand what I'm supposed to do next. And they would say because it's not your problem to solve. And as a parent that's a tough one to take on. But I knew I got to the point that it was like I had tried every single thing I could possibly think of doing. 

We tried to have all those conversations. It got to the point that my job became not trying to fix or control them. My job became fighting for their future self. I had to give their future self a chance if that meant that police, I would and, and this is nothing about Canada is that if they were minors and something happened in the house, police would not press charges you as a parent had to press charges. And I just picture like how many parents are actually going to go that route. And it took me a while to get to that space. 

I actually wanted to do it sooner and police kept talking us out of it saying no, this is gonna, you're gonna ruin them by doing this. And I'm like, but it's not working, like nothing is working. So, so we talk about uh like pressing charges that's potentially they're ending up in sort of like a youth three man center or juvenile detention center at some point for the or what does this look like? So, charges for a lot of, and I can only speak to what it was like then I don't know if it's changed now. I have my doubts that it's changed now. 

Um, but it would be um things that they would have to do mandatory counseling, they would have to do. Um, they would have to do. There was one time we sat there. And I'm, I'm not trying to make light of our system, but I just want to share this piece that doing something very seriously illegal. And in order they did not want to give him a record, they would have to write an apology letter to their parents. They would have to draw a picture to say how sorry they were. They would. And I remember my husband going, you're joking me like this is what the consequences are like, how is this possible? Like we've got 16 year olds doing horrific things, not just our kids, but with the system. And so we didn't really feel supported anywhere. 

I'm gonna say that. Yeah, I think we had to stand on our own a lot. So you mentioned at some point in time, you have to come to this place where for lack of a better expression, you wash your hands of this situation. You go, I've done everything I can do there. There's nothing more than I can do again. 

I I the word that comes to mind to me is like heartbreak. It's, it's but for your for your own sanity, you go like there is no other thing that I can do except let them go. It's I think surrender is something you don't learn until you have no other options left. I really do. People say, how do you surrender? I'm like you don't until you have nothing left to try. And that was what we had hit that point. 

There was a point, we almost lost them both a couple days apart. And that was a turning point. As awful as that moment was, that was a turning point for me to recognize that my way wasn't working. 

This is not working. I can't fix or control this. I can't manage this. I, I've tried everything I can. And in that point, a counselor said to me, your job as a parent is to be a springboard for them so that if they come back to you, you can help to support them. And right now you can't even support yourself. So you don't have a prayer of helping your kids. And that might sound very harsh, but I actually needed to hear that it was, I actually admire her for sharing the way that she did because that was the moment that I went. 

Ok, I'm stuck in my story right now. How can I help? Like if they did come back to me, what version of me do I need to be in order to be able to support them, how can I do those things? And that's when the work for me really started to help stepping in and stacking in the things that I needed to become a better version of me, but also fighting for their future self. And I remember once we probably had to press charges multiple times with our kids. And I remember being in the courthouse once. And my son said, I can't believe you keep doing this to me. And I'm like, I will do this to you every single day because I am giving your future self a chance. 

My job is not for you to like me right now. My job is to give your future self a chance. So this can't be a shock because I'll keep doing it if I have to. And that's just who I became and I, it helped me to not fight who they were but to give their future self a chance if that makes any sense. No, that, that's, uh, uh, I love putting it that way. 

Um, because I, again, and it's this idea of tough love and I think maybe there's a fear around tough love nowadays. I, and, and my fear actually is that young people are being raised with a lack of resilience, which is leading to a mental health crisis among youth today. I think you've, I think you're right on the mark there. I think that a lot of parents are afraid of letting their kids fail, they're afraid of letting them fall. Um, they don't call, they used to call it helicopter parents and they don't call it that. Now. They call it lawnmower, parents, lawnmower, parents, take the lawnmower and like let me cut all of your obstacles out of the way before you even get there. So you don't have to worry about a thing. And I think that the resiliency we have is something that, like, we learn that by things not going great. 

And, and I, again, I think it's better to let them fail at 15 than it is at 25 that helps them. Right. And I'm curious, the conversation that you would have with them once you've got to this place of surrender, like what gets communicated to them and, and like, did you somehow say I'm letting you go? There's nothing more I can do with this and because that would almost feel like in one sense, a, a weight gets lifted off your shoulders. Like how did that get communicated to them? So how it got communicated. And first off, these are great questions because this is such a I, I, I I'm grateful that you're asking in the way that you are because I think this is gonna share and support some people who are listening, how it got communicated is, is that um you are where you are today because of the choices that you're making. If you don't like where you are, it's going to require making different choices and not shaming them anymore for the decisions that they were making because that doesn't work as anybody who's listening if you ever have dealt with addiction, like, or actually just even ask yourself what behavior do you change when you shame yourself for it? Because you don't. And so really, I had to do that with love. I'm here. Right? That um I will love and support you and if that means that you end up spending time in prison, I will still love you, but I am not bailing you out anymore. 

I am not let you are gonna fall on your feet to figure this out. So I love you and I'm here to support you and this is what's ok and this is what's not OK. And I think that's really important because parents say to me, what rules do you have to put in place? I'm like only the ones you're planning to stick by because don't like, don't say do this or you're not here because if you're not gonna follow through with it, they know that they know that and I had to really get to a space of what are my expectations. So that's like no disrespect, no violence, no breaking things, um, go to school, um, come home and have decent time, right? 

No stealing things like they sound really simple, but that's how simple it had to get. And if you can't follow that then you can't stay here. And, yeah, absolutely. And so what was the, the turning point for them? Because you get to this place, you recognize, I can't change them. What? And, and maybe it happened differently for each one as individuals but what, what became the turning point where they came to this place? 

I want to change. I recognize I don't want to live like this anymore. Yeah. I think it was different for both of them. And I remember, like, specifically it's letting go and letting them figure that I was like, my one son, for example, didn't go to school for probably a year and a half and he lived in an apartment and he washed dishes for a living and I remember him specifically coming home and saying mom, I don't think I wanna do this anymore. And again, as a parent, it'd be easy to go. 

Well, see I told you so, and that is that none of that help. It's not helpful. And I was like, no, I get that. I get why you don't wanna do that, say less honestly as a parent learn how to say less, faster, faster. And it would be that, yeah, I get that. What, what do you want to do? 

Well, I think I wanna go back and finish high school. I'm like, that's a great idea. I think you can do that. And mom, I think I want to finish my like, year and a half in a year. And this is, I'm like, I think it's a great idea. So do I go to the school and ask them to set it up? I'm like, yep, yep, you can do that. 

I believe, I believe in you. And so it's really was trying to empower them to create change but not make it happen because here's the other thing and I, I'm gonna say this with love and some parents are gonna feel very called out for a second. We wrap up our job and how well we've done based on the, on their success. Ok, so if we are wrapping up our title of how, well we've done as a parent based on the success of our kids and we're owning their wins. We also have to own their losses too. And I don't think that that's right either way. So it's really this piece of how I used to say it is is that I will stand beside you. 

I will cheer you on at all times. But my job is not to push and pull you through their life because it's not because if you're gonna do it, you're gonna be doing it forever and they don't know how to stand on their feet when something is going wrong. So you can still support them, but it's not your job to drag them. It's, there's a big difference between support and, and disempowering them and you came, you got to the place where no, I'm going to, I mean, empower them. 

There's so many questions I have. There's so much more about this powerful story I would love to explore. But as we, as we come to a close here, I, I love that. There's, there's hope in this story. There's a lot of hope in this story. 

This is um I got to this space where I really started to like own my own choices come from a space of taking responsibility for myself. Stop blaming my kids for where my life was at because I did, um, and really pouring back into myself and my husband did the same and we were able to come back together as a little bit more of a stronger united friend. And we've watched our kids make incredible changes over the last like five plus years. Incredible. And we've also watched them make some mistakes, which is gonna happen. They're gonna, they're gonna make mistakes, they're humans. I make mistakes. And, um, through that process, I started to slowly share my story on small stages, bigger stages and writing books and my own podcast. And it is, I can look at it and go some of the worst years I walked through, set me up to do the work that I do today that I'm so grateful that I get to do. And through the process, I become a different person and I have learned how to like, forgive myself, forgive them and to really just be in such a different energy that has allowed us to rebuild relationships that I never thought would have been possible, ever, would have thought would have been possible. And I'll just express a sent and just out of curiosity how you might feel this. So I, I've been through traumatic experiences in life and I wouldn't actually take them out of my past because I wouldn't be who I am today doing the work that I do if I hadn't gone through that. And what's really interesting is I'm actually grateful for those experiences, even though I wouldn't ask for them. And I wouldn't ask them again. 

I am so grateful because they have helped shape who I have become and the work that I do. And so I'm curious now as you look back because you can look back in this place of hope knowing that your, your boys are in this a very different place. They, they made very different decisions that a much better path in life. How do you feel about those, all those years and everything that you went through? And would you change anything? I, that's such a great question. 

I often say, I wish I could have learned this in a book, but that's not how we learn. It's not, it's, we have to embody our experience in order to um do something with it. And I wish I could have learned it any other way. It's taken me a long time to work through the trauma of those of those years. It really has. And but I'm, I am who I am today because I've walked through those challenges and I can't, I can't love who I am and who hate and hate everything that makes me who I am. And I think that's a really important distinction. So I have just learned to look at it with lens that it has shaped me into who I am today and how I see life is going back to the very beginning of the episode. 

I have a different lens than what some people do. I really have a different lens than what a lot of people do. And I'm able to recognize and appreciate that every single person has a story. You think that you know what's going on in their life? You don't, you never do. And the snippet you see on social media tells you nothing. 

You, I'm able to apply empathy in the sense and recognize that we're all walking through difficult experiences. And I think that we could get a lot further if we gave each other some space and support and less shame and judgment that's so beautiful and really, that leads into the final question that I love to ask my guests. And that is for somebody listening to this conversation today. Um What is, what is one thing that you would like someone to take away from what they've heard today? I would love for people who are listening to this that whether you walked in my story or not, maybe you resonated with some of the emotions that I I shared and what that felt like. And I want you to know that the story that you're walking through today is not your forever story and it can change at any time and this is something simple that helped me in knowing that I could turn my biggest pain into my biggest purpose and you are perfectly designed to help the person that you once were. I love that. That's so amazing, Marsha. 

Thank you so much for, for sharing a very powerful story and being vulnerable. It's truly been a pleasure. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I have loved this conversation. Thank you so much for tuning in to between the before and after. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review because that helps this podcast to reach and inspire more people. I love exploring the stories that take place between the before and after the powerful experiences that shape who we become and I love human potential. I love the possibilities that lie within us. So whatever you may be up against, I hope these stories inspire you because if you're still here, your story is not done yet. So keep moving forward.