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Jan. 31, 2023

From a broken 26 year marriage and a victim to hiking Kilimanjaro at 61

The end of Nancy's 26 year marriage broke her to the core. Her subsequent split with her fiancé years later, finally woke her up that there were lessons here she needed to learn and that is exactly what she has done.

For Nancy, it was a journey back to self as she crawled back out of her victim mindset to become the thought leader and guide that she is today.

The end of Nancy's 26 year marriage broke her to the core.  Her subsequent split with her fiancé years later, finally woke her up that there were lessons here she needed to learn and that is exactly what she has done.  

For Nancy, it was a journey back to self as she crawled back out of her victim mindset to become the thought leader and guide that she is today.

For so long, Nancy thought she was living her own life's vision.  She was raised to be a wife and mother – with maybe a side career to go along with it. A natural caretaker, she readily stepped into that role and was good at it. Whatever passion or purpose was important to her husband, it immediately became hers. She loved their life and she loved her role in keeping it all together... until her husband had a personality break and midlife crisis.

So, when it all came crumbling to pieces, she told herself that he ruined her life.

She thought if he no longer wanted me, then she no longer wanted herself.  She was stuck in grief and blame – he broke our family picture.  He broke her.  Nancy couldn’t see anything good in her life and she certainly couldn’t see her role in any of it. She was devastated and she didn't have the tools to move forward and heal and it took her many years to recover and find herself again.

In that time, all she knew is that she wanted her life fixed. So, she dove into another relationship again, where her role was to keep it all going.  She felt whole and life was fun again.  But, the problem was that no matter how hard she tried to keep the pieces of the picture together, it didn’t work.

At the end of that relationship, she knew she had to take a deeper look at what was happening. Coaching finally opened her eyes to see the role she played in her life circumstances.  With greater emotional awareness and understanding, she discovered that she had been following a life blueprint that was not her own.   Nancy went from being "other referenced" (seeing her worth through the eyes of her husband) to self-referenced and  only needing her own self love and trust to know her worth.

Nancy is now a master life coach and international best selling author.  She learned to reinvent herself after her marriage fell apart and she uses the tools and strategies she learned over the years to inspire others to live their best life.  

She is a speaker, coach and presenter at resorts such as Rancho La Puerta. Her passion is helping others move beyond their fears and disempowering beliefs formed in their childhood.

Nancy's personal life story is a testimony to her proven methods. At the age of 61, she climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, in addition to other amazing experiences and achievements that recalibrated her way of being and became her vision for a bigger life.

Not everyone must climb a mountain to live larger. As her book well shows, each of our versions of a bigger life can be anything that brings elation, accomplishment, fulfillment, and connection with the spirit of who we are. Bigger Better Braver  provides the pathway to uncover our personal vision of what living bigger means and opens the door for a major life change.













Welcome back to between the before and after a podcast, about the stories that shape us, I'm your host coach Jon McLernon, and each episode.

At bring you an inspiring guests with a moving story, that shines a light on the power of the human Spirit.

I'm excited to share this story with you.

So let's Dive In.

Welcome to show Nancy.

Thank you, thanks for having me.


And we're, you've got a great story as well.

I think there's some really, really cool things that you've done in your life and I'm excited to kind of explore that.

But I always like to kind of begin with where your present.

Yeah, you know what are you doing now?
And then we get to, we get to take a look at the journey that you've been through this winding path of life to get you to where you are presently.

So what are you up to currently well?
So I'm a internationally best-selling author of the book bigger were braver and so, I'm doing that.

I'm doing a lot of podcasts.

I do a lot of speaking engagements and I'm mainly a one-on-one life coach, but I do coaching, I do it for bigger that a braver and reinvention.

And also I have a class at starting February 15.

So, if anybody is interested, it's called the new blueprint, the new relationship blueprint, so it's how to redefine relationships.

What's the new paradigm?
How do you make yourself a priority?
How do you say Up healthy boundaries.

How do you hold yourself in warm regard while you're, you know, cherishing your partner as well.

And so it's a great 12 week course that I'm doing and you can have a mailing list that and all of that that you could.

Yeah, that.

So I do a lot of that.

But mainly, and I've started doing relationship and marriage counseling coaching that's new for me with Terry wheels.

And he's a Maintain his work is amazing.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but so I'm in a two-year program but I'm already working with couples and it's very different than working one-on-one, for sure?

That's, that's definitely challenging as well.

I think you're well suited for the kind of work that you're doing and really, that part of that is because of because of what you've been through, in your own, your own kind of Life journey.

And so if we if we Rewind, the clock of it here, you know?
Because I often wonder when people find themselves doing the president doing, you know, growing up was this like this idea that you had that, I'm going to be like, you know, best-selling author on and relationship in life coach or what did you really Envision?
You know, your life starting out as when you were younger.

I grew up in Buffalo, New York.

Okay, I now live in California and Aspen Colorado.

Do for nowhere near what I thought I'd be with my life at all.

And To be honest with you, I grew up in an era where being a wife and mother was still what I wanted to be when I grow up.


You know, the whole fairytale find my prince lived happily ever after be a good partner.

Be a good boy, be a great mother.

And that really is still at the core of who I am.

And yet, I've moved so far beyond that because I was married.

I got married at 21 right out of college and I was For 26 years, very happily two sons and that defined me but really, I was very other referenced.

So, I saw my self-worth from how other people especially my ex-husband saw me so fast forward.

26 years, great life, Dada, when he no longer wanted to be married.

Then instead of me recognizing that it was him, he ended up with somebody 23 years younger than Than me and him and older than our sun.

They had nothing to do with me, but it actually took me down to my knees and it took me a really long time to crawl.

Back out to find my soul again, and who I was, and my own worth.

And so, it's really easy for me to help others who have had similar stories.

And also, to help young women in their 30s or early 40s who aren't Aerojet or haven't found their voice and haven't made themselves a priority and set healthy boundaries, I've been on both ends and so that makes it really easy for me to help other people.


Yeah, so you were you married at 21.

It was this when you graduated college that you married like how did you and your husband or ex-husband?
Sorry, like meet each other.

How did that happen?
Well we met in.

We met, we actually met around.

Fountain at the University of Buffalo because I had gotten a new brand new puppy.

And I was there with the puppy and he walked over to me and said, is that an Airedale?
And I said yeah, he said I used to have an Airedale and I started to just meet him there every day for like a week.

With this other guy, I never knew which one of them like me was really a funny story but that was it you know.


So a puppy by Fountain while you were in University.



And what were you?
You studying at University.

I have a master at that time, I had a got a BA in psychology and sociology.

Yeah, I got married, I got a master's in education, okay?

And you know, I always find interesting when I say people study psychology because to me it's a fascinating topic, sort of understanding the brain and patterns of behavior, and why we do what we do.

But I often wonder how many people study psychology because they want to know more about themselves.


And for you what was it that Drew you to wanting to study psychology?
I just was really interested in person P interpersonal relationships, and people, and I don't even know what I thought I was going to do with the biggest can't really do much with a BA in psychology really have to go beyond it, but it actually has helped me.

You know, if you looked at the projectory of my whole life, I was a degree in psychology and sociology then I got a master's in education.

And then I opened a personal training gym I was a trainer and gym owner for 16 years and so at that point I was helping people from the outside right out of fitness and now I do enter Fitness.

So yeah, and I also still work with people in health and wellness, and holistic lifestyle, but it I never know what's coming next.

I didn't have that plan.

Yeah, but but they They all line up.

Yeah, so you studied this and as you touched on like there isn't really a lot of professional opportunities for just a BA in psychology because if you know, work in that field is a clinical practitioner.

Generally have to go a step further and probably get like a PhD for most people.

So you then settled into your married and I'm guessing you started a family and, you know, and at what point did you decide that?
We're going to did the Master's in education.

Come first, or were you starting to do your personal training first?
No, no I got my Masters in Education.

Got my masters and I literally walked out of the last class of my Master's nine months pregnant and well okay, birth to my son.

So I never really used it until my kids were in like at least elementary school and then I just taught nursery school for five or six years and Then my husband and I we built this beautiful.

We had a beautiful home and we built this huge Cybex gym as part of our home.

And then I guess, I'm just going to go and get certified.

And the amount of three months is it took me to get certified was what it took us to build the gym and we'll see.

Here's, I had this beautiful gym in my home and everybody in everybody in the community came to me, I had meant early in the morning.

I had teachers after school, I had high school kids and then I had let people that didn't work during you know off hours during.



So and where were you settled?
At this time we had the gym in your house, New Jersey.

Okay, just just south of just south of New York there.

Yeah, yeah.

And what do you love most about working people?
In person training, you want you to do that for 16 years?
I loved it, I loved it, I'm really good at it.

I like to be in control.

I like to tell people what to do when I loved it.

I mean, I was fit as could be and I worked out everybody and I listened to everybody's Issues.

And it was great.

It was, I loved every minute of it.

I really loved every minute of it.

But when I got divorced, I eventually sold my house and I sold my gym and then I moved to Aspen Colorado and I didn't go back to to being a trainer.

There were a lot of things here, really fit, amazing trainers and financially.

I was, I was, you know, solvent and I didn't really want to take Away from other trainers.

And so I didn't even I did, I did fundraising, I didn't really work for nine years until I was in another relationship serious relationship and when that one broke up I thought wow the universe is trying to tell me something here, there's something I need to know, it can't just be that.

I'm have a bad picker, right?
And I have to figure it out and I got myself a healing, your heart coach that was my first certification occasion and also and so So I got one and I decided to become one and that started me down that was probably eight certifications ago.

So I keep adding tools to my toolbox.

I keep at, you know, if I get a client that has an issue that I'm not really prepared to do, I will go get certified in something else that I can bring those tools back in and yeah.

So you know, knowing yeah.

So Bring it back just a little bit here because you know, it's funny we can often gloss over like a decade with the wave of a hand you know?
And so you were doing this training for 16 years and then came to came to the divorce.

You were married for 26 years to to your ex-husband and along the way, like, was there, any indication is that you could, you know, observe where things weren't quite as rosy, seemed or Did it seem to come out of the blue from your perspective?
Yeah, he had a classic midlife crisis.

There was some emotional stuff that happened with his mom that brought stuff back to him and that just changed who he was and he was now.

And again.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's quite fascinating.

And, you know, you have with again of his background in Psychology, may be watching this unfold and what was sort of the timeframe that this this unfolded like this midlife crisis hits to, you know, were were no longer to be together and we're separating There was 11 months from the time that he said, he was unhappy the time that I finally called Uncle.



And ultimately it was that was your decision, was it?
Well, I just gave up, I could I, you know, I stood on my head for, you know, remember the movie The King and I and he kept saying, how low can you go the woman kept having the like be lower than him and then he would sit and have to get low was probably on the floor, that's how I felt for those 11 months.

Like, what else could I do to try to keep my family together?
And when this man back and there was nothing I could do.

And I tried, I Pulled out all the stops.

I literally gave up who I was to just try to be anything he wanted me to be.

And every eleven months, I just Said.


You know you yeah and you know to shine a light on something here at the you touched on something really important.

I think it's worth unpacking just a little bit here.

You you gave up on who you were and tried to be whatever it was he wanted you to be in order to try to hold things together and I think that seems like a natural response from, you know, from somebody who wants to to keep this together until maybe a light went on, you realize that like you were not the problem and there is nothing you could do.

To to satisfy that, you know?
Didn't you know what, what went click when you realized I'm not going to be able to be whatever.

This, this man wants me to be at this point in time.

Nothing really clicked for me at the time I didn't do.

It wasn't doing work on myself.

I mean, I think I was seeing a therapist as it as that was, as we were losing Our marriage.

It was much later because if this big psychological crisis, I could put all the attention on to that rat, right?
But as the years went on, I was able to see that.

I actually over loved him and over did for him.

And that becomes boring actually.

I didn't, there was no like men like the hunt, you know, there was no that I lost myself because I saw myself through his eyes.

It was much later when I was really doing interpersonal work, that I actually remembered who I am that on the I'm way stronger emotionally than that, man will ever be on his best day.

And I could once again, trust who I was and here I, you know, I'm living to into, I got a great partner.

I have four grandchildren, I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, it's 61 years of age.

I've got an internationally best-selling book, I'm rocking my life and I love my life.

And I'm first in my life, like I really know that I have to take care of my own needs first, so that I have left over for everybody else in my life and yeah, it's a classic we can't pour from An Empty Glass.

And so, when you when you look back because it's maybe easier with hindsight, you know, what would you say looking back, You observe maybe over the course of the marriage that you were, you were losing any sense of identity or this really only start to take place when it became clear that relationship was in crisis.

I used to think that I was such a powerful woman because I had this partner.

I truly believed that I was half of a whole instead of whole on my own.

So it wasn't that I didn't do some really big things.

I was a huge fundraiser.

I was a marathon runner rate.

You know, I had my gym, but I always thought that I was that capable because I was half of a whole and roasting.

Yeah, a long time to realize that I'm whole all by myself, I am worthy because I'm on this Earth and I breathe and so is everybody else.

So you're in your at that time, you're in your mid 40s.

When this is taking place and that's a maybe really in many different sense of the word, a transitionary phase in life as it is.

And, and you said certain point time after 11, months of trying to salvage, what you could, you know, you cried.

Uncle and said, look, I can't, I can't save this.

I can't see if this matter can't say this relationship.

You know, in sort of the aftermath of that.

Where did you where did you?

I didn't go anywhere for a couple of years.

I stayed in my home in New Jersey.

I still ran my gym but I but I actually got a got a like a second home in Aspen.

Because I wasn't brave enough to leave New Jersey yet, that's where I raised my kids.

One was still, you know, they had just they were both just getting to college and yeah, I didn't want to leave and I was afraid to leave but I wanted someplace else.

And then fast forward.

A few years.

I put myself, I put my house on the market and when it's told I was already dating a man in Aspen and so I thought.

All right, I've already got the place and the man and ask then I'll go there and if it doesn't work and I don't like it.

Then I'm gonna, you know, move on.

So how you know?
It's fun.

It's interesting to me again, just like, how do you see you bought this place in a stand while still living in New Jersey?
I mean the housing market maybe was And then another it is now.


And maybe maybe a certain wasn't of them.

How did you pick Aspen?
Well, I was a trainer, right?
I was very yeah.

So my sister and her husband had a place in jail and I went to Val thinking that's where I would go and Val is, like, not a real.

It's dead.

You know, we went on July 4th and by 7:00 at night, we couldn't find a restaurant.

And I was with two girlfriends, and one of them had gone to Aspen for years.

She said, let's just get in the car tomorrow.

And you have to see Aspen before you buy something and say oh it's not like a real town.

It's sort of just a resort and went to Aspen Aspen on.


4th is like being, you know, it's like a town on steroids.

I mean everybody world as part of the parade, it's unbelievable.

There were so many people and it was so happening and that was it.

I bought a condo and yes, I could not buy my condo today and it's the Prices.

This, you going back to 2005?



Honestly from a little girl from Buffalo who nothing about Aspen that was that was like an amazingly great financial move on my part.



And it's good that you had, you had a couple of close friends with you on this trip as well.

So then, did you did you divide your time?
Like I would spend, you know, sometime in Aspen some time, back in New Jersey.

Well, those years I only came here for like, I came maybe three or four times a year for a week.

I really.


And then and then I met my partner.

My my partner before the one I have now and and I moved here full-time, and then I only lived here and I did that for six years.

If I did eight years, your previous partner there, how did you end up meeting him?
His ex-wife who they had just gotten a divorce called me and asked me if I would go out with him and how did you know his ex-wife?
Because they also came from New Jersey.

So I didn't care.

We knew people in common.



Isn't that fascinating, the, you know that the thing I think back to, like, the movie Six Degrees of Separation, you know, that like we're only ever, you know, and so she what?
Pumps what prompted her to reach out to you and say, you know, we're separating or divorcing I feel like you would be a good match for him or something like that.

Of course.

And she had a boyfriend, which is why they got divorced in the first place.


And he's very shy and she probably felt bad and she also she didn't want a part of her explanation was that she didn't want some of the ass.

Aspen women who were going to come crawling out of the Woodworks to like take advantage of him.

And I New Jersey girl, who we had friends in common who told them?
I, you know, I was level-headed.

I was a good person, you know, right.


That was it.

Okay, how about that?
What an observation.

I mean, I'm not sure what it was, what it was saying about the, the character of the women in Aspen, if they were going to come crawling out of the woodwork, ER, or something along those lines, but may be more assertive or something like that.

And he Was he was just a very easygoing kind of quiet.

She just she was, she was trying to be like mother cup.

Yeah I mean I guess that's kind of nice nice in regards and but how does it how does it feel on your end?
When someone's like, hey, I want to set you up with this person because, you know, I did not hear I really I was with it and I had her permission, right?

Wasn't like, people back in New Jersey, or going to say she, she didn't waste any time right commission?
She said.


And and so you ended up And at this point in time, you know, you've obviously you've moved on from your previous marriage there, so you're feeling, you know?

And so you're like, okay, I'm ready to get back into back into a relationship again, you know, what was it about this?
This gentleman that the Drew you said hey you know what, this guy's a good guy.

Well, because he is a good guy.

Yeah, he's a good guy, he's fine, he's very shy.

He looked at you like with great warm eyes and we had a really nice relationship for six years, but that one died too.

And so, yeah, I was uh, I mean, I'm 66 years old, I've been in a relationship for almost seven years.

I'm very happy.

We were really good partner, very equal but I don't ever think there's The age limit on new relationships or new careers or adding to what you're doing.

It's not a an age thing for me.


What's you know?
And so obviously at some point in time in this relationship with us at this previous gentleman, who seem like he's a very, you know, kind of a good man but it became clear that this isn't the right fit for you.

And maybe I maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but I'm guessing.

Thing that this was your decision.

Your your realization that this is feels like this relationship isn't the right fit?
Is that he he He wasn't a really happy individual, okay.

And he started to get to a point in his life where I think he just thought like the world was coming to an end and you you know, nothing like you needed to leave the country and you needed all of that kind of a thing.

And he it consumed him that just put them over and so it just the relationship.

Just didn't sir.


Yeah, yeah.

And so this is kind of fascinating one sense that you've had these, these two experiences where maybe you were like, because you described your preview your marriage of 26, years up until that point like being a pretty happy marriage, very hand that and then like something some sort of psychological crisis happens with your partner and then all of a sudden it's crumbling falling apart and it seems like there's I don't know how much it was.

There's, they're identical, but there's some similarities are some cross over there.

Where again, they reached a point in time where or the individuals having some kind of personal crisis, you know, it may be connected to psychology as well and you're watching this, play it again.

What is there?
Any sense of Déjà Vu here or no?
But now I can tell you this that wherever you go.

There you are.

I was people pleaser.

I love men who I thought I could save.

You know, staying, I was not getting emotionally whole men at the time, both of them needed who stained ego self confidence.

I was that person.

Like when I first started dating the second man and I'm talking about there, you know, I had a lot of relationships in between but those main ones he told me he'd never been happy day in his life.

He was eight years old and my ears.

I'm like, you haven't met me.

I can't.


Right, right.

I was a people pleaser.

I was a conflict avoider.

I would take charge.

That was my job.

I don't want that anymore.

I've hung up my Cape, I'm not Superwoman.

So, my day is, we're equals, he's very short, he's very confident.

Ain't he doesn't need fixing some either.



We do need.

We're Partners.

We care that.

We hold ourselves and warm regard, and we hold each other and warm regard.

It's a very healthy relationship which is fantastic to hear.

And so after this the second relationship or the second I guess can cause a major relationship ended, it seemed like at that point you realize I may be I need to do a bit of soul-searching.

Did you were you starting to wonder like am I the Maya the common thread in the failures of these two significant relationship?
What kind what kind of I Am The Common Thread and they are the single denominator and all our relationships, right?
So that's who we are wherever we go.

There we are.

So you have to look at yourself.

That's part of my whole new course is seeing what you've been doing.

What are the patterns, who are you attracting?
So that you can change what you're doing or you're just going to end up there, you know, different different guys saying, new days they?

And so what realizations did you Come to about yourself at this point in time, what was like, aha.


I see was a people pleaser that I could build up everybody else and try to take care of everybody else.

And that I was attracting into my life men that needed saving.

And where do you suppose that if you're looking back to the buttons or the benefit of hindsight, but where do you suppose that might have come from this this desire to please people to try to save people, you know.

Do you have any insight on that?
I think it's very common for women.

I think women are brought up that their needs are not as important that love and life means taking care of their partner and their family that their needs don't come first.

So I was raised on it.

No what do you say?
You know, I'm a parent.

I have a toddler and my wife's amazing.

She's she's a great, a great wife, and a great mother but I think my observation is that motherhood is probably like seems like the probably the most selfless occupation in a sense because it does require Almost out of necessity so much giving of self.

And of course when you have this little human being that really can't survive independently and you know I try to pull my weight as well.

I joke that, you know, she she took care of the input.

So I take care of the output sort of thing, but it seems like especially for those who've gone through motherhood like you go through this part of your life.

These number of years in your life where it's almost a necessity that too.

Some degree, your needs come second.

And I wonder if, you know, maybe there's been this pattern that gets passed on from generation to generation, like this is just how it was through.

This is how it is, you know.

Do you see or not?
But I do think like, I have two sons and married and I four grandchildren and I think women and men today are not the same as they were 40 years ago.

I think men are doing more.

The picture of the old regime does not hold up, women don't go for it.

I'm in demand a lot more equality.

Even if their stay at home they demand a lot more equality in most women are getting Be back out in the workforce.

And so, there has to be more eventually, you know, a change in command in and sharing and I think it's different, you know, I'm still from the old patriarchal where, you know, men were up here and women were down here and it just doesn't, that doesn't work anymore.


So in your In your journey here.

So now you're in your, I guess mid-50s at this point and you're now at the point of the second relationship, surgery back to them, you know.

And so now you realize I have to kind of go on this journey of like, self discovery of uncovering.

Like, what is it about me?
And how do I did, you have any idea where to start?
Did you dig back into your background in Psychology, or how did, you know, kind of where to go to start looking to rectify this this pattern that you had in your life?
Somebody had recommended that?
Before it's book called the spiritual divorce.

And I got the book and then I got a spiritual divorce coach and that started the whole thing.

When I registered.

I said I'm going to get myself a coach and I'm going to become a coach and I had not really been in the workforce for nine years and I knew that I had a lot more to give and to offer, then I was using it wasn't utilizing my gifts, I wasn't living up to the best of my Leti and I knew it, but in that relationship he also was retired.

So we were traveling a lot and playing a lot, and I didn't want to do anything differently.

So that also just reminded me that I have way more to offer and to do and to give back.

And now I do it on a daily basis.

That's so what a fascinating term, spiritual divorce.

What is it?
How would you summarize that in your words, like what does It referencing something like a spiritual divorce.

It's about recognizing that there are gifts and lessons and everything that happens to you and that you attracted that partner into your life, like a lock and a key.

You your wounds are attracted to each other, your childhood wounds and that you can use relationships.

Now, I do for sure to heal my wounds because when you get triggered when Are doing inner work you can recognize and you can discuss these things with your partner and you can figure it out and you could heal your wounds when you get divorced.

You usually first think that you're the victim in the story and so it takes some work and that's what the spiritual divorce does.

To show you that.

You co-created it.

Sometimes you co-created it with actions.

Sometimes you co-created with disempowering beliefs that are in your subconscious, As you created it from wounds that you have, and once you start to do that work, you can stop being the victim in your story.

And you can see how it all happened.

What are the lessons?
Because, you don't want to do the same thing again and you know, you can use this word victim.

And I think that's, that's a fascinating often loaded word, because there's something about being a victim that does offer some degree of comfort.

You know, I'm an aggrieved party here and therefore, I am worthy of others like sympathy and so on, and so there's there's a certain appeal to that.

And so, after having gone through this, did you find yourself kind of Trapped in the victim mindset for some period of time?




Not what this part of doing the work?
Never never again, right.


And so right.


So you're kind of Trapped in this, this victim mindset, and For anybody out there, that's listening who might be struggling the same thing because as you probably agree, like the victim mindset has some appeal, you know, it has some draw because of what it offers us and because of the needs that can potentially meet to some degree.

But of course we can never be fully fulfilled as long as we remain trapped in a situation where we say, you know, I'm a powerless I'm powerless in the situation is something that holds no power over me, but how do you start to dig yourself out of that victim mindset?
And how do you because again, there's something about when we have to For lack of better term call ourselves out and say like, like I'm playing the victim here and this is actually hurting me.

How do we do that?
You know, I'm not trying to plug coaching but I am trying to plug coaching plugin.

I'm coach Steve you can't do these things alone.

I mean my book actually is a step-by-step, how to, you know, how figure better?
Braver conquer your fears, embrace your courage and transform your life.

It's a step-by-step how to do it.

But so you could do something like that.

You could get some books and you could do things like that, but you need support and you need somebody.

D to show you what it's costing.

You just because I am not saying that like divorces equal 50/50 and that somebody didn't do something to you, but I hope you see that they did it for you.

So I'm here today, living a life that I would not have been living with either of those two men.

It was going to be all about.


And, yeah, and that's how it was for me.

But you don't see it in the moment and you don't see it when you're in the in the deep dark mock of depression and sadness and overwhelmed and victimhood especially if the man or the woman goes on to live a much bigger life and you you can't even enjoy yourself because you're so busy looking on their side of the street.

Well, I I help.

That's what I help people do is get on your side of the street and see how you co-created it, see what the gifts and what the lessons were so that you can move on and have a different life.

Well, we all have emotional blind spots things that, you know, it's like try to describe the, you know, the patch of skin between your shoulder blades.


You know, even with the mirror, it's incredibly awkward to try to, you know, get some sort of visual on that.

But somebody else could Like, oh, here's what you have going on here with without any difficulty because there are encumbered by your emotional luggage that you're carrying with you, in a sense.

And so it's, it's a valuable piece of insight, you know, I often reference when I was a military and we would do, let's say if there's a bomb threat, we had to search space, we would bring two people into that space.

And the first person, some is a very, very familiar who spends a lot of time in that space.

And the second person that you bring in a, someone who's who never spent any time in that space, you just staying and That way, you know, when you look at something, the person who is often, like, who's very familiar with that space tends to easily overlooked things because of a sense of familiarity, the person who's never been in the space before go.

Well, is that normal?
Does that belong there?
You know, and, and so having that second set of eyes, that that is not because we just, we follow new pattern, right become very familiar, with their sort of our day-to-day existence.

So getting that other set of eyes that's not attached.

That doesn't have that previous history can be incredibly valuable.

And so there's, there's, you know, some sort of a G2 what it's like to be working with a coach when we see that, right?
That's I like that a lot.

We I say that the only person in a room.

You can't.

Clearly see is yourself.

Hmm, that's a great way of putting it.

Yeah, like that.

You, we have a lot of disowned qualities that we don't recognize it in ourselves, but we actually have them other people can see them, but we can't see them.

So that's where that all comes from working on your disowned qualities, and trying to be more emotionally Hole and all that good stuff.

Yeah, so you know, one of the things you've touched on not initially here.

But is that fear can be a driving force for change?
And I think it's a very interesting perspective because fear is well it's an emotion that we don't necessarily like or want to experience.

How do you see that as being a being something like that?
I think we all have fears.

And I don't want to walk down a dark alley, and a bad.

Hooded to am.

I listen to but I have actually learned to cultivate my fear.

So if there's something I'm afraid to do I can tell myself I have to do it because my growth is on the other side.

So like I've been asked to build a couple of courses for different, you know, organizations and at first I'm you know the impostor syndrome.

Oh they think you're bigger than you are.

You can't do that.

Blah blah.

Blah in the Immediately I can say to myself the moment.

I step in and build that course I am that person.

Yeah, and so you know I'm a double black diamond skier.

I am a big athlete I use.

I know that I can keep doing more and keep growing and keep getting better and keep taking on new responsibilities and trying new things and I don't let my fear or my imposter syndrome ever.

Stop me.

My co-presenter.

In different places and all of those things they do cause fear, you know, our inner child wants to keep a smile.

It's quite natural.

Yeah, it's it is it's what we do and I think, I think it's really important to highlight that, you know, you're extremely accomplished as an author and a speaker and a coach and so on.

But there's these fears still come up.

And so, I think what you're what you're alluding to here is like there's certainly rational fear is like the example I gave walking down a dark alley to am like it's just it's just not a good idea.


But on the same token other fears that come up.

They actually point us or really pointing to exactly what it is that we should do that.

We should face that we should move through the thing that we're afraid of, you know?
And how do you differentiate between I guess?
Say those two types of fear.

Anything that's keeping you playing small is a fear.

You need to have compassion for and say you know shut up and get in the backseat.

We're gonna yeah.

And every time you step outside your comfort zone and you try something new, the way you feel about yourself for trying something new.

Is worth it.

The juice is in the journey.

It's in.

Yeah, it's in my book.

It's interesting Journey, but it's so true.

You know, people have fear of success.

They fear failure, they have fear of looking stupid.

To me.

If I don't try any of those things, I already look stupid.

Like it's already worse.

I already filled.

I will feel worse about myself for not stepping in Then I can never feel for stepping in and failing because, I fail or I fall, I'm falling forward.

I gave it a shot and I'm still growing and it's a stepping stone for me.

Alright, what worked, what didn't work?
How do I, you know, lick my wounds and get back up and try it again.

And what do I need to do differently?
Who do I need to speak?
To what?
Excuse do I not have.

Maybe it's just not my time and I need more I need to know more.


Now, to bring it back to your personal story because, you know, you now are in like a very satisfying and fulfilling relationship.

How did you meet this individual?
And when did you know that this was different.

Well, I met him on online dating.

Yeah, what a novel thing?
You're in your mid, 60's?
Now and I think the idea of online dating because, I mean, I grew up where I had the internet first one is like, 10 years old.

So it was it showed up in my childhood, but, you know, you grew up in an era where it didn't exist in childhood.

So II, I coach my clients to be online dating.

I don't think it any other way to meet people and you know, it's rare that you meet somebody because She hooked you up with somebody else.

It's just where and who aren't really going out and sitting at the bar, like, you're not doing those kinds of things online.

Dating is introducing you to people who are supposedly looking for what you're looking for, right?
So it's a short circuit.


I'm very, I'm very, very big online dating.

And I met him, we I was still in Aspen, he was in California.

I was living in both places, so, We sort of we were emailing and texting for a couple of weeks before we ever had our first date.

So we kind of really like each other's minds and our style.

You know, we were both New Yorkers and we both like the edge of that.

And so, by our first day, we were in, you know.


It was just like the cherry on top acting meeting every right, right?

That's absolutely fantastic.

And I think there's something really cool about this story too.

Is that I think many people might have said, well, now it's too late for me, you know, my time is past and past my Prime, whatever it is, you know, and you're saying, well, that's not true, you know, an 81-year old client, whose wife had died, who was really sad and lonely, and I got him back up and running and dating.

That's, that's amazing.

That's amazing.

Well, that's you've got, you got quite a story and it can see why You know, you do the work that you do because all these different experiences that you've been through, they've taken to this place where exactly where you're at today.

If you were to people who listen to this one, I think they found it very an interesting story, you know.

But what would you like people to take away from this conversation?
If you were to come to offer them one, one nugget to take away.

I think that the last person in a race still beats the person on the couch.

I love that, right?
You just have to get out of your comfort zone.

Take bite-sized steps outside your comfort zone and prove to yourself, that you can do it, and you can do hard things, and then the juices and the journey, absolute love that.

I'm definitely going to use that one, I think.

Ink in the future so.

Well Nancy.

Thank you so much for being on today.

It's really been a pleasure chatting with you.

Thank you.

It's been great.


Thank you so much for tuning in to between the before.

And after if you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review because that helps his podcast to reach and Inspire more people.

I love exploring the stories that take place between the before and after the powerful experiences that shape, who we become and I love human potential.

I love the possibilities that lie within us.

So whatever you may be up against And I hope these stories inspire you because you're still here.

Are stories not done yet.

So keep moving forward.

And I hope these stories inspire you because you're still here.

Are stories not done yet.

So keep moving forwar

Jonathan McLernonProfile Photo

Jonathan McLernon


Coach Jon is a weight loss coach and emotional eating expert who has lost 100lbs. From nanotechnology researcher, to Navy marine engineer, to globetrotting nomad, Coach Jon spent most of his life running from his true calling, until one question changed his life. Now he's on a mission to help others lose weight for good and leave BS diets in the rearview mirror.

With Freedom Nutrition Coaching he marries the Science of Metabolism with the Psychology of Behavior Change and the Compassion of Human Connection to create life-changing transformations with his clients.

Nancy PickardProfile Photo

Nancy Pickard

Author, Life Coach

Nancy Pickard is a Certified Integrative Coach through The Ford Institute for Transformational Training and the Levin Life Coach Academy. She is certified as a Breakthrough Shadow Coach, Empowered Parent Coach, Courage Coach, Healing Your Heart Coach, Leadership Coach, Holistic Lifestyle Coach and Bigger Better Braver Coaching.

She is the author of the international best seller, Bigger Better Braver: Conquer your Fears, Embrace your Courage, Transform your Life.

Prior to her work as a coach, she owned and operated a personal training gym called Tight Ends Inc. She knows what it takes to help people achieve big goals. She holds multiple personal training certifications and has focused on health and wellness for almost 20 years. Her path towards coaching was a natural evolution—she has a BS in Psychology and an MS in Education.

In 2017, she traveled alone in Thailand and Vietnam and undertook her biggest challenge, climbing Kilimanjaro at the age of 61. Coaching others to step out of fear and into bigger versions of themselves is her passion.

She is the mother of two grown sons and an active grandmother to three beautiful granddaughters and a one-year old grandson. She is an avid hiker, biker, skier and yogi. She is passionate about her four-year-old Australian Labradoodle, Bliss.