A rare heart defect, a twin childhood, and a born storyteller

So today is a special episode because this is a podcast about the stories that shape us and I'm bringing on a storyteller with a great story behind uh her, her life as well. Um Storytelling is a huge part of what we do as, as human beings and there's so much power behind it and this is why I wanted to explore this today with Camille and her own story. So welcome to the show. Thank you, John. It's lovely to be here. So excited to get into this with you today. Yeah. And before we get into your back story, I'd like to just let everybody know a little bit about what it is that you do presently and then we'll kind of explore the backdrop to what led you to being here. Yeah. Sure. So as you alluded to, I am a professional storyteller, a storytelling specialist, if you will and I help people communicate better. And when I say story, I really mean any kinds of communication because that's really what communication is when we are talking to each other, when we're writing, when we're interacting with each other in any type of way, really, we're telling stories. So for me, in my work in my business that I call storytelling with heart, um I work with leaders and founders and executives and high performing individuals of all kinds. And I help them communicate more effectively and authentically. 

I help them get the stuff that lives with inside us, the ideas and perspectives and unique points of view and experiences and stories, knowledge, all of that stuff and figure out how to express it better and more effectively with the people that they want to reach and in the places where they want to make an impact. And what is it about storytelling that is so compelling for, for us as human beings, you know, I think about, we live in the age of Google and we live in the age of information. But I think storytelling has never been more important than in today's day and age. Hm. Well, I mean, as you and I have discussed this, you know, before, prior to being on the podcast and you had used the language, I think that we are wired for story. Um and, and, and actually, and this is not my expertise, but there are books written about this. Uh Lisa Kron has a number of books about this that actually explore the neuroscience that our brains are really indeed wired for stories. 

We are designed to tell and interpret information as story. So even if something is just a bunch of kind of straight up facts or something that seems benign, our brains are trying to make it a story out of it. So, I mean, I'm doing that right now. I have kind of my own story about, you know, what this podcast means about who you are, about what my relationship to you is about who your listeners might be and, and how I might connect with them and the stories that I want to tell and convey and all of this kind of stuff going on behind the scenes that we might not even articulate um represent forms of story. Yeah, I, and I think this is fascinating to think about that. Like everything that happens to us, it's not uh like your, your perception of it and my perception of the experience are not identical because through the lens of our own lived experience, what we're doing is we are making meaning out of what happens to us. And so we can take a relatively simple experience and based on whatever our background might be, say this, this is why this happened to me, whether it's a story about the universe or whether it's a story based in theology or uh something like that, we have some explanation for it. 

And, you know, I think maybe this is part of what makes us so wonderfully human again, is this capacity for story. I like to think about this. Um It's not my phrase originally, but stories are sticky. And so we think about even the ability to make memories. Uh Most people, we don't really retain facts all that well, until we can attach an emotion to it. And then something becomes much, much more memorable. 

We can probably all recall a time in our life when I don't know, maybe something made us angry and, you know, we kind of snapped me in the grocery store or something like that, something totally benign. But we remember because there's such a strong emotion connected to it all of a sudden that's much more intently, kind of burned into our brain and easier to, to recall. And so I think part of this storytelling and, and creating meaning is helping us to, to retain memories about kind of our lived existence. Yeah. Absolutely. And I, I think a couple of things that I want people to know about this is first is that I'd like to emphasize that we are all storytellers. Like one of the reasons why I think that this is important to convey and to really take in is because we are often taught that, you know, story is something that's reserved for like the creative types and I, I deal a lot in writing and helping people write and people will say, like I, I can't write, you know, I'm not good at this. And so they think I'm removed from it. And I mean, absolutely, you might not have maybe some of the same natural gifts like myself. 

I've always been a writer that's just been part of who I am. Not everyone's going to have that certainly you can develop skills, you can work with someone like need it to help you bolster those skills or to support you in the process. But it doesn't mean that you don't have ideas that are worth sharing a perspective point of view, something that is worth getting out of your head. And also that, that it's not possible you don't have to live with it just on the inside, unexplored, unexpressed as though that's reserved for the select few. And the other thing that I really want people to take in about this that I was just thinking of while you were speaking is that as much as I'm saying? 

Yeah, all of this is a story. Our brains are gonna, you know, make some type of story out of it. That doesn't mean also that we can't aid the process, like make it better or kind of control it in some way. So, you know, again, if you're trying to teach someone something, if you're trying to share knowledge or maybe stuff that you view is more factual or, or data driven or whatever, that doesn't mean that we can't communicate it in a way that really works for that brain. That is just so ready to snap up a story. And, and again, this is why I really try to help people understand. 

I'm using the word story, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a traditional story or even a personal story. A story is a way, it's like a map. It's like a road map, a way of taking from point A to point B as they learn something new or absorb new information in a new way. And I think, but as we, we look back on the various stories of our life, it's, it, again, it's a sense or it gives a sense of why we are maybe the way that we are because we, we take an experience we've had and we, we put a certain interpretation on that and it helps us to understand how we've become, who we've become. And that's why I love this podcast. The tagline is the stories that shape us. And um I, I really like your story as well. 

I think it's, it's a fascinating one and one that maybe doesn't get explored as much. You know, I often work with people who have overcome significant adversity, maybe the term in, in the face of like a terminal illness or a critical accident or or things like that. But in your case, it starts with your heart and that's actually where, where the name of your company comes from, uh, storytelling with heart. And, uh, so if we could just get a little bit of a background, you were, if I understand you were born with a, a heart defect. And, um, well, I'm, I'm now as a parent of a young child and, and a child with, uh, who has a slight heart condition as well. I'm thinking now from the perspective of a parent, oh, what would it be like to hear? And I kind of know now what it's like to hear that your child has a heart defect. Mhm. Yeah. And I imagine that it would be quite scary and I have empathy for my, my parents and, and their reaction to it. 

Um, yeah, you, you kind of alluded to this, as you said, you know, we have people on here who have terminal illnesses and like there was a moment before coming on here where I'm thinking like, you know, my story is not this, um, it's not super dramatic, it's not, you know, life and death. Um, well, I mean, although there was certainly risk involved and, and it felt that way at times. Um, but it's funny because I also will hear that people saying that to me where they're like, oh, my story is boring. It doesn't, you know, it's not so dramatic and I'm like trust, trust me. I, I, it actually matters. 

Um, but yeah, so I was born with something called complete heart block, which sounds scary. Uh, like your, your hardest block. Like it's not working. But in actual fact, with that meant in total layperson terms is, and what I understood was that, you know, it just did not beat as, uh, as regularly as a heart would and should, and on the whole would be slower. So it's gonna be a bit more erratic. 

Um, now when folks are diagnosed with this, uh, my understanding is usually it can happen when they're very small, like babies and you might put a pacemaker in at that point. Um, or it can sometimes maybe be something that, that sort of is seen later on in life. And so I grew up with this knowledge that I was different in some way that my heart did not work the way that hearts should work. Um, you know, it was defective in some way that there was risk around it that my parents were afraid of it. And at some point I would have to have a pacemaker, but the doctors wanted to wait and see. You know, they could have just put one in right from the beginning, but they decided to wait and see, uh, which I'm glad that they did. But it also meant I had, this became like the big bad in my life the one day. 

Yeah, I I'm curious, like, at what age did you, like, become aware because this was obviously diagnosed before it could maybe be communicated to you that there's something wrong with your heart. So they would have checked you out, maybe found it in. I don't know your first year of life, for example. But at what age did you become aware that there's something wrong with my heart? And, uh, do you recall any feelings that you might have had as a little person about that? Yeah, I definitely recall the feelings. 

I mean, the I think the diagnosis was, was maybe when I was around two. it's hard for me to, to pinpoint an exact moment, but I do recall absolutely growing up with a lot of, of fear around it. I had to also have um, every so often I can't, I can't recall now how often it would be, whether it was twice a year or once a year, but I would have um a, a halter monitor put on, you know, where they like, stick all those wires on you and have like a recording device hanging off of you for 24 hours or something like that. And I would have to go into um like, you know, the cardiac unit at the hospital, you know, every so often for tests and that stuff felt so uh like, so gross to me for like, but I, because what I felt around all of this was like there's something scary going on. There's something wrong with me. 

My mom is especially anxious about it, but I know I'm ok like I feel ok, I was physically, yes, maybe a little different. Um which kind of came out more later on because I just didn't have maybe quite the same endurance capacities as other kids, but I would say healthy, thriving, active, busy, creative kid. And so, but I felt like this is the thing that like people see me or like going into the doctors, they're treating me like there's something wrong with me. Like I'm really actually feel the defective heart and did it as a child. Um Did it manifest any way where there was some sort of restriction or limitation on, on what you could do? Uh No. Um except for, I mean, I maybe I couldn't really keep up so much with the other kids. Like I remember being in elementary school and maybe if there were like longer distant race, the distance races or something. But like in the short, in the, in those younger years, the way that kids run around and, and stuff and play like II, I don't think it really came up there. I remember. Um but I remember for example, being called out for it, like I remember being in gym class and running around the same as all the other kids and my gym teacher who must have received a note or something about this was like, oh Camille, you can sit out right and being horrified, like horrified and going home and just, and making my mom call them and tell them never to say that. 

I mean, truthfully it's not, you know, you don't like announce like he did do something wrong but, but the level of my, you know, embarrassment and shame and I do remember, you know, when we were a little bit older, like them teaching us to take our heart rate after games or running around or something. And I would just like lie about mine and any time I did fall behind if I was, you know, on bike riding with my family or something, if I fell behind, I would feel this just, yeah, this real ick because again, there was sort of, it's like, is it, am I just, am I just lower or is it because of my heart? And if it's because of my heart, then I feel just so bad about that. 

What's, what's really interesting I think about the language that we use. And so you use words like gross. And I, and very often we'll use a word like that when what we're trying to express doesn't really have language around it. And or, or there's, there's so many different things. It's like I just need one word to try to capture the essence of what I'm feeling. And I feel, pardon me, I feel a sense of discomfort on the on the inside and there's so much attention at a young age, at an impressionable age, the child being put on me because of my heart that I'm being told routinely is, is defective and we and fragile in a sense, I, I get this impression that you were treated as, as fragile. Um Did that, did that lead to like, how did your friends or maybe how did your schoolmates and things um navigate that? 

Yeah, I mean, like, first of all that notion of fragility, I mean, it, to this day this is stuff I kind of like rubbing up against of, you know, these like childhood beliefs that, that I, I, so I so did not want to be fragile, you know, and I didn't want to be seen as fragile. I wanted to be seen as, as strong and I, I, um, a long time ago I wrote a blog post about this about as a teenager then going into those doctors, those appointments to have my heart checked or whatever. And I mean, I was already, you know, a punk kid but wearing like all the armor, like the big combat boots and the leather jacket. And it's like, you know, I was putting on this like demonstration of like, I'm not, I'm not fragile, I'm, I'm strong, I'm, I'm resilient. I'm, I'm, I'm tough even. 

Um, and, you know, in terms of the other kids and stuff like, you know, I, I would, my policy was like we, we don't talk about, we don't talk about this. This is a, this is a secret and um you know, that's something we can, we can get into more. But I, I kept it as much of a closed secret as I possibly could well into adulthood. So what's really interesting about this? Here is um, one that you had, you were getting mixed messaging because you were getting this messaging maybe from in, in your body saying yeah, something's not quite right, but it's, but it's not the end of the world, it's something I can deal with. But from the outside, from the adult messaging what you're getting and, and you know, as a parent, I understand again when my, when my son was diagnosed with his heart condition, like my, my heart sinks and it's funny how we talk about our, our heart like that, this feeling of like, you know, I is he gonna be ok and, and again with him, like what it, what it amounts to is it'll show up later in life as, as his body grows bigger and his heart has to work harder to sort of deliver blood. 

It, it won't deliver it in quite the same way. But as a child, he, he can just rip around like, you know, a kid with no restrictions, which is great, but I know how I felt about it. And so I feel this awareness that I, I don't ever want to like, impose on him. My, it's, it's my love for him and my fear of loss of him or something happening to him because I love him so much. But I try to be thoughtful of not imposing this on him. So he doesn't have this awareness that, uh, oh dad thinks I'm fragile. And so they actually, I think my, my response is, you know, we do all kinds of wrestling. 

He calls it flying when I chuck him onto a stack of pillows or things like that. And he think this is the greatest thing ever. But so I hear your story and what, what you did is like you were receiving this, this sort of messaging that felt mixed for you. And so now there's a stronger response. You're not getting the message, the adults in my life and in particular, maybe you're not getting the message that I'm not as fragile as you think I am. So now I have to put on this sort of like external show and, and display and you, you, you mentioned the term punk and, uh, so you sort of found yourself in that genre. When did that start showing up for you? Um I mean, first of all, before I answer, what a great like recap. Thank you. And I, and I also, um, having, having grown up with this, I really love to try to impart that, that message if I can to, to parents right? Because I get it, you know, that you're, you're gonna have fear but having this natural trust in your own body yourself and your resilience is so important. And I mean, it wasn't just my heart condition. 

I grew up with, you know, anxious parents, my mom uh suffered suffers from um health anxiety and hypochondria as well. And so it was really amplified for her and she has her own, you know, like physical and health traumas in her background. And so I can again have empathy for it. But I also look back and I'm like, you know what, this didn't have to be such a big deal that like we talk about the stories that we tell around it and it's like holy smokes, this story really uh really escalated and I would have loved to have a little more like you're OK, you know, you're, you're, you're good um in, in my life. Um Having said that um your question about like, you know, getting into to punk and things like that. 

I mean, I was always a little um a little bit rebellious and a little bit like just even different in my own personality and self-expression and like, you know, not necessarily doing things the way that the other kids did them and that kind of entrepreneurial streak was in there. Also from the beginning, other kids were maybe doing lemonade stands, my sister and I were doing like full on carnivals with like, like poor, you know, constructed dunk tank and, you know, you name it. Um And when I got in high school, um so probably around um you know, 14, 15, starting in, in grade nine just started getting more into uh punk rock and into uh ideas of social justice at the time, animal rights activism. So I was very busy in high school. I had an animal rights uh um uh a group organization that I started with my sister and that actually wound up spreading a little bit. And we made zines together. 

I published books of poetry and in journals and uh we put on benefit concerts. We were really active in music and we were always speaking out particularly around social justice issues and that kind of informed a huge uh huge chunk of, of my life. And so, I mean, that was sort of already there, but I think it was also, um you know, at times a tool that I could kind of, that I could kind of use to feel like, oh, you know, stronger, tougher and, and, and more kind of capable and in control. Right. Right. Now you said something that I don't, I, I don't want to just kind of gloss over because this sounds kind of fascinating. But he, he said he put on carnivals as kids like poorly constructed dunk tank. So I was like, huh, that, that already sounds like like a good time. 

What, what like what actually, what actually would like take place here because this sounds like actually a really good time. It was, I mean, so I have a twin sister as well, which I haven't mentioned before. I have an identical twin. Um, so it was often her and I, and, um, yeah, I mean, the carnival thing is, is always stands out in, in my mind because it's just so typically, you know, wanting to, like, make things bigger and more creative. The Du Tank. Well, we, there was AAA neighbor whose granddaughter visited now and then, and we would kind of rope her into this stuff and we were like, let's throw a carnival and we had all, you know, different games and stuff and the dunk tank was really give us money and we'll pour a bucket of water on our friend. 

I don't know how we roped her into that. But I, what I'd add to that too is that is, you know, also, even as a kid, I was self publishing books and stories and my, my, my parents gave us a lot of, um, like we were never really into organized sports so much and, you know, again, partly because of my heart, I probably veered away from it a bit, but also it was just, we were never the most, um, you know, physically like gifted kids or coordinated or whatever when nor did we really love to be in, uh, situations where people were just telling us what to do. Ok. Now, do this learn this? We really like to pretend and to daydream and to make stuff up. And I'm grateful for that because I think it's also really allowed me to do what I do as a career, which is also, you know, making a lot of making up a lot of things inventing my own, my own path, my own business and, and helping other people find creative avenues as well. So you shared a detail there that somehow I, I must have missed in any of our previous conversations. 

This is that you have an identical twin sister. And um so why, why I'm curious about this now is because you have this, this heart condition. Um But I gather, did your sister have any condition like this or was this unique to you? Yeah, it was unique to me? OK. And, and so did that affect like, did you observe or were you aware of like your parents? 

Because, because now I'm thinking my my science brain goes in and he goes, oh man, we have, we have like a scientific study here. This is interesting because you have two people that are largely genetically identical except for this one thing here. Uh But did that affect like how your parents treated you like? Did, did you they treat either of you um differently in, in regards to that? I think the answer is a complicated, I mean, fair enough. I think there was stuff that, that I learned and that I went through and that I dealt with that, that she didn't or she had to deal with it on the outside. Like she maybe didn't have the same messaging that you might be fragile. But she had, then the messaging that her sister who she's so close to is, 

you're, you have this identical twin. And I think what's so what's fascinating about this is when you have an identical twin who is, um And I, I actually want to explore that a little bit more too because I think this is, this is an interesting time that many people are curious about. Um But who's receiving the message that this, this person who is essentially like an extension of myself is someone that I, I could potentially lose because of this, this thing here? 

I suppose the other thing I I was curious about um was if there would be any kind of maybe like resentment develop as a result of you receiving a different type of like, or more special attention because of this or, or um like how that would show up for her as though maybe she's getting a little bit less attention because she doesn't have this thing that makes her fragile or, or needing special care. Yeah. Um, I'm not sure. I know we have had conversations in the past, you know, about how she perceived this, how it, you know, maybe affected her. Um, I think, I think more than anything I, my guess would be, it's like she got absorbed as well into this sort of narrative and secret. Um, so I don't know that there was really uh resentment there and I don't know that my, my parents necessarily like, really treated me, you know, much more differently in a, in a, in a particular way or obvious way. It was more of sort of this undercurrent of, of anxiety and kind of this whole narrative of what, what this meant and, and to like that we have to sort of tiptoe around it and, and that type of thing

Yeah. And so growing up with a, a twin, I mean, I guess for, for all of your existence, you've had this other human being kind of beside you and you, you have this level of closeness. Do, do you have the ability to, I guess almost like communicate? Um oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh you say non verbally, but essentially understand each other intuitively without necessarily having to use words. Like, what does that bond look like in, in, in your case? 

Mhm I mean, I, I could talk about this for hours as well, because Twin Ship is a, is a, a complex thing. Um So we have always been very close, the nonverbal communication. Um Yes, but it depends on the situation. So for example, if um we're sitting around a table together and you say a particular thing and I know I have a, a feeling about it like maybe I think, oh, it's so cute and sweet that John just said that and I might like if I if say she's sitting beside me, I could nudge her with my elbow. You wouldn't even notice it and she would nudge me back and we would both know we're feeling the same thing that's not gonna happen with everything. It's not gonna happen all the time, but it is gonna happen with certain things. Um I will say the, you know, we are like I said, we're very close, we are super close growing up. Um We are still close today but we live very different lives. 

We're very different people. We live in different places, have different occupations, different lifestyles the whole bit. Um And as an adult, you know, navigating, navigating that can be more challenging because a part of you still always wants this real deep closeness that you had as kids. But at the end of the day, you are also individuals who need to go in their own way, in their own direction and you need to be able to really respect and, and have space for the other person's choices and, and lives. But there's a part of you that's also always going to be like, but like, I need you and want you close to me. And so like, it's an interesting kind of dynamic and were you a novelty at, at school? Like growing up being twins? 

The, the kind of worst part I would say about being a twin is that it is hard to um like you have to fight for your individuality, you have to fight for people to see you as a person. Um And so that certainly happens, that can happen in any context you're in. So it did happen in school. I mean, I, I got used to turning around to either Megan or Camil, like it was one word, my sister's name is Megan so big or Camil um or uh put my last name or worst of all. And so you're like that just kind of exemplifies even having your own name is not, it's not really the way people see you necessarily, it's not something you're really even like allowed to kind of have full ownership over. Um And then that can be challenging within a family dynamic as well with, you know, as you go through school um within sort of whatever communities you're in together. And so whenever I see people who have twins, it's like, I don't want to overstep, but it's kind of like if I, if anyone's listening, who has twins. 

Please know they are two whole people on their own. They are two whole individual entities and there might be so many things that are similar about them, including, like, not just how they look but including their personalities and stuff, but just remember and honor and appreciate that they are two separate people because then finding your own independence and just getting to be your own person and really owning that is then its own journey. Mm. Mm. What is, what is the best part about having a twin sister that you have a baked in absolute best friend and especially right when you are young and like we didn't often fit in, you know, and we found our own, our people, our, our groups of friends as time went on and stuff. 

But, you know, it, I was never, it was never, I never had to go through life. What you had to go through as a person, one person in the world that you had to navigate on your own. I never had to do that really, you know, I mean, a, as an adult. Yes. But then I had all of those years of experience behind me. I never, you know, had to just really face life on your own as an independent soul. Like I always had my best friend there. Hm. Hm. I, I love that term. 

A baton best friend. That's a great way of describing it. Um And so when did you, when did you, I guess, recognize and I'm wondering if maybe this took place in the teen years, you know, you start to recognize we, we want to establish more independence, like, and was this sort of an agreed upon thing between the two of you where you both recognize it mutually or was, did one of the kind of recognize it first? Yeah, I, I went first and it was not an easy transition in my family. I mean, it's, it's hard. So, you know, it's hard to answer this totally, honestly without getting fully into the very messy family dynamics. But I, I grew up in this, this codependent kind of home and things really evolved a lot around. Um my mother and kind of what she wanted and needed and, and her was, she was sort of the focus within the family and it was naturally hard for my sister when I, at um 15 16 kind of started kind of go verging off more and at 16 getting a serious boyfriend as well and, you know, I really wanted that independence. 

I wanted it sooner than she did. Um, and that, but that's normal. It's a normal part of any kind of, you know, childhood development to try to find more independence and so on. And it's also normal within twin dynamics. But my family wasn't really able to find that or acknowledge that or see that as maybe healthy or normal or beneficial. And they weren't really able to provide support to my sister who's going, oh, what's happening, like, you know, like, like Camille is going in her different direction. 

She maybe wants to spend time with her boyfriend instead of me or, you know, and so they weren't really able to support her in that and instead they came down pretty hard on, on me and really just wanted me to stay with my sister. Stay, stay put. Um, not, not look for independence or, or anything like that. Yeah, I, I'm a bit of a background in psychology so I, I think about from, from, uh, that could be explored in there, but, well, just that, um, kind of the struggle to find, find your independence. And so now I think like looking back, was there a point in time where you were able to have that honest conversation, maybe you both had left home and they were able to sort of sit down and have this conversation and maybe mend what might have been perceived as a, as a herd or a slight or anything like that between my sister and I, um, I mean, I think we had a conversation just recently actually where we were kind of like, hey, let's unpack what happened here more, you know, and like, II, I maybe have talked a little bit about what happened to me from my point of view. 

Um, but, you know, she was sharing like what it was also what it was like for her to um you know, to feel like she was like losing me and, and feeling kind of vulnerable like that and just like the way that my, that my mom reacted to it and stuff. So um honestly John, I feel like we've my sister and I there's there have been so many things that we we maybe talk about and stuff, but you also have such a fundamental bond that even when difficult things happen, you kind of mend where you can, but there's never any doubt that you're gonna keep going. There's never any doubt that you're gonna be in each other's lives. So I don't know that we have, um, yeah, I, I, like there's probably more even, you know, within the context of us as a whole family of a lot of the stuff that was just never talked about again or, you know, necessarily healed or mended. But my, but my sister and I always had a fundamental sense of like belonging to each other in a way. 

You're not gonna lose the other person. You might, there might be distance, the relationship might change. Um, but you're never going, at least in our case I can't speak for everyone, of course. And some twins do have really, you know, big breaks. Um, but we, neither of us have ever felt that that's the risk if that makes sense. Absolutely. When, when it was the first time that the two of you started living separately and there was some real, like, physical distance between you. 

I have more questions about that. I'm curious sort of when that started, uh, when we went to university. So, like, 19. Mhm. And you went to, like, separate universities in, in the same city or even in separate cities as well in separate cities? 

Yeah, we went to different schools in different cities. Um, I was, I, so I grew up in um, AAA smaller city called London, outside of Toronto. And uh I went to school here in Toronto. I always wanted to go to the big city. Knew that's where I was going. I was so excited um to go and kind of, you know, find that independence and sort of sense of freedom and carve things out on my own. Um My sister went to a, just a different school in a different city, not all that super far away. 

But, yeah, it was our first time and we, and we visited each other and we wrote letters to each other and, um, you know, had, like, we had a lot of fun, kind of interacting with each other in our new communities and sort of finding ways to do that and uh through the years, like she's, you know, she's lived in different countries. She lived in Scotland for, for five years more recently. Um So we've, we've had different, you know, sort of physical distance at different point and we've always lived in different cities. We've basically, uh, it's been very brief that we've ever lived in the same city as adults. So I think there's maybe, perhaps an element of novelty there that emerges as well. Um, I, I gather, you know, um, you maybe grew up a pre internet as, as Children, but maybe the internet was starting to become a thing. 

I, I mean, I was involved engaged in a long distance relationship to my now wife for kind of, uh, a couple of years and, and I say a relationship loosely because even though I knew that she was gonna be the person I spent my life with, it wasn't firmly established until we actually arrived in the same city together about two years after we first met in person. But, um, at some point I think so, so we spent a lot of time on the phone and a lot of money on phone cards. And I wonder, uh, you know, was this a situation where you talked every day or maybe it's just a couple of times a week? And because what, what's kind of exciting is there, is this element of novelty? We get to explore this relationship in kind of a new dynamic where, where there's this freedom, but there's this reassurance of ongoing connection. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, I can't remember how often we, uh, we would talk, I don't think we talked on the phone too. Much there. I don't know. I mean, we, we, I'm sure we emailed but I think the, the novelty, like, and also going back to our sort of our creative time together as kids and as teenagers, we continued that. 

So, like I remember sending, we would send each other like parcels of, you know, sort of care packages or letters. Like we didn't have to write letters, the email did exist and, but, you know, we would put stickers on them and like, make them look cute and fun. And then, you know, you're especially like that first year when we were both in residence at our respective schools, being able to go to your mailbox and get a package from your sister. So we've always kind of found ways of, of acting that way in a, in a way that is, is fun. And like when she lived in, when she lived abroad, going and getting to visit her there and, and spend time with her, um she lived in Glasgow and Glasgow became, you know, my home away from home in many ways too because I would, you know, we have these kind of rituals and, and places that we would always go and things that we love to do together there. 

When I think of Scotland, I think of this little restaurant called like a baked Potato um shop actually. Ironically, yeah, I, I love Scotland. It's, it's a wonderful little place. It's a lot of fun to explore. Well, Glasgow admittedly does have a bit of a reputation. 

Um, but I, I like that you said that, you know, email did exist. But the, but, but with this highlights though is there's also something to like receiving something physical in the mail and, and I think now about the psychology, maybe that's why Amazon is such a thing. It's like getting a present every couple of days or something like that for people who, who, who show up on Amazon or even other places. Right? I order something, something physical comes in the mail. And I, I've often because I had pen pals as a kid but before email, um if anyone listening can imagine those days. 

But, but now I imagine like if I was to write a letter to someone and mail it to them without telling them and it was to show up in like their mailbox, I think there'd be a lot of like excitement and intrigue and curiosity and it would really provide a lot of delight because now it's kind of a novel experience this, this way of communicating um in what's seen as maybe an old fashioned way. Yeah, I, I love uh snail mail. Um, and I think it, it actually does, it provides many opportunities for uh creativity. So, in my own work I have, um, you know, I've, I've written two books that I have self published and that I have, um, you know, you can order one of them on Amazon, but one of them was expressly through my own website. So, um, it's sold out now, but at the time I would be, you know, mailing packages and I made things to go along with it. 

You know, I made stickers. I've also made um, little card decks, um, with writing prompts or gratitude prompts. I've, um, and I've done like, just lots of, you know, I've done little postcards and stuff that are branded by my business. So things that you can send out in the mail and sometimes the shipping costs with this stuff makes it difficult. But if you can do it in a way that is inexpensive, like even just mailing someone a thank you card or a postcard. Um I typically have done Christmas cards or holiday cards. I just think when you give someone send something in the mail one year, I did like a whole package of like a, you know, like a annual report type thing that I did with, you know, full sort of stories about my clients and things. Um I think there's an opportunity there to give people something that is tactile, that is a surprise, that feels special. Um So that's, it's something that I've definitely enjoyed and tried to incorporate into my, my business and my communications generally. 

Yeah, the, the, the novelty of receiving like a really nice physical toke. And I was thinking about um for those watching the video, this water bottle I have here you probably recognize the color and whatnot. Uh For those listening, it's a water bottle from precision nutrition. Um They, they sent that to me. But for, for myself and my own business, I would write postcards to clients when they sign up with me or I continue to write postcards when clients sign up with me. Um And uh of course, they don't tell them I'm going to send this. But a lot of my clients have said to me, I took that postcard and I put it on my fridge because what I do is is from their intake form. 

I gather some information about them in their back story and I try to write something meaningful that's unique to them. So it's not a generic message and I, I write it by hand with my somewhat messy penmanship. That's some, you know, I could cheat and my wife has beautiful penmanship and I could cheat and kind of have her write it. Um But I think there's something about seeing, there's, there's genuine like human effort gone into this above and beyond. Maybe just sending a meaningful email, not to say that's like email is wonderful. But we've taken an effort to do this and to communicate in this way. 

This means that, you know, you, you're, you're, I see you as an individual and this is something special. I want to make a above average and working with you. I love that. And the, your point too that it's, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect like people think, oh, my penmanship is terrible. Great. It shows that it's yours. It shows that you did it and I just would really emphasize that as well. Like if you're sending any type of card, a welcome card. 

A thank you card, a holiday card or whatever, don't just sign it. And I know it's so hard for people. They, there's a lot of people who freeze up when they uh and I say this because my husband is like that. I know a lot of people who are like that and, and it's like, I, I think of it as like birthday card syndrome, you know, and he'll be like, ah, but I don't wanna, I don't know what to write and say happy birthday. But you know, any kind of attempt to say like I see you, you individual person not, you know, like that, I'm gonna give you more time than just a signature. If you just put a signature on it, it's like, well, you just did this en masse but if you make any kind of just acknowledgement about the person and by the way too, that's not the place for like a, you know, if you're sending out, say a holiday card or something, then this isn't the place to say like, let's work together, you know, just, just be like, you're awesome. 

I wish you a great year. He sort of taints the communication, um, a couple of times uh for some special clients that I've worked with for, for quite some time. I, I sent them like a custom yoga mat. I knew their favorite animal and, and their colors and quotes and things like that. So I had customs on yoga mats um sent to them and uh one of, one of them is a unicorn actually. And you know, and yeah, I would never think about like putting my logo on there or something because they don't need to see that. 

They know exactly who it came from when they see this. I know where my unicorn yoga mat that has, you know, my magical place written on there. I know where that came from and it creates a sense of because again, I think the work that both of us do is really, it's a deeply personal work. It's not, it's not something this mass produces a very individual, deeply personal work and to really help people to continue to be successful and, and grow from, from working together these little, these little tokens or maybe even not so little tokens really uh really help to foster that and encourage that. Yeah. And I would argue that goes for, you know, anyone who is trying to develop a personal brand of some kind as well, like even if you work within a larger organization, but part of your job is to develop relationships then, you know, just that act of sending something to someone, um sending it a, a gift or a card or something that shows that you see them and that isn't trying to persuade them to buy from you or that isn't about you and your brand, you know, guess what, you know, like, like you just said, John, that person is going to remember you and your, your brand and your organization, like you said, they know who you are, they know where you, you work. Um So you don't, it doesn't have to be like me, me, you know, if you extend this um this expression and something of yourself and that personal connection, then, then you're, then you're building something there that you're building something that, that will last. Hm. Well, I, I love these conversations and I'm sure this will be one of many that we get to enjoy together. Um But as, as we bring this to a close, um there's been some unexpected advice that come out of this and that's part of the reason why I love this is it. 

It's sort of free flowing and something comes out of it and we learn something new and I go, oh let, let's go down this trail here and I really appreciate just your openness and sharing um your, your lived experience. And it's, it's clear why you're, you're so good at what it is that you do. But I just think whenever someone listens to an episode like this and they come to the end of the episode. If you were to offer one taker, you'd hope that somebody, it takes something away for you. Sorry, if I were to, if someone were to take something away. Yeah. Someone listening to this conversation. If you would like them to take something away from hearing this conversation today, what would that be? 

I mean, to be honest, there's so there's so many more parts of this that we didn't really have an opportunity here to explore. I guess I would want people to know that that story that you have about yourself and what that means to you does not have to be the end of the story or the final story. You know, I grew up feeling um all this, the shame about this thing and I kept it a secret for, for so many years. Um But as I learned to share that story and I learned to make it part of my own, you know, kind of personal narrative and who I am and what I stand for when I, when I started talking about it and sharing it with people when I got up on stage and turned it into a speech when I got to the point where I was no longer hiding from it, but actually really wearing it as a badge of honor. I have an anatomical heart tattooed on my back. My business name is storytelling with heart. 

You know, that's deliberate. It's, it's a pun, you know, I was able to reincorporate this story as something that I am proud of, a story that I can use to help others. A story that I can um used to, you know, connect with other people also by sharing some of my, my own vulnerabilities and, and difficulties in, in my life. Um that, that is profoundly empowering and it shifts the nature of that story in the first place. So, you know, stories are kind of an ongoing thing and we have an opportunity to rewrite them, to edit them, to look at them again and, and assign different meaning to them. Um So, whatever, you know, anyone who's listening, whatever your own personal story is, I would encourage you to, you know, interact with that story, consider, you know, kind of writing it in, in different ways and maybe expressing it in some different ways and just being open to engaging with it. And it may wind up being one of the most impactful things you can do is to actually share that story and, and I love that just this idea that that anyone professional or not that take ownership of your story um embrace it because it's part of what makes you uniquely you and special in this world. And so to, there was other other elements of your story that I would have loved to, to explore but I think this is a good word to, to actually interact, interact with you a little bit more. If they were to connect with you, where's the best place for them to reach you? Um My website, which is Camil to putter dot com. And I also record a or host a podcast called the Storytelling with Heart Podcast. So you can also find me on uh just about any podcast platform wherever you listen. 

Amazing and, and you write, you write a fantastic newsletter as well. And so I encourage anybody who has a real interest in storytelling. Um It's, it's well worth reading. So um thank you again so much Camil for being on the show today. It's really been a pleasure. Thank you John. Thanks for taking me down some different avenues and some different things that I hadn't thought about before. And uh being in the profession that I am in, you know, my specialty and superpower is helping other people tell their stories and listening to them and pulling their thoughts and ideas and experiences out of them. And so it was very refreshing to just get to dive into my own and tell you all of these, you know, personal details about myself, kind of a novelty for me. So thank you for having me here. Oh, it's been a pleasure.