From "Worst Child Ever" to Oxford PhD

[0:01] Welcome back to Between the Before and After, a podcast about the stories that shape us. I'm your host, Coach John McClernand. Each episode, I bring you an inspiring guest with a moving story that shines a light on the power of the human spirit. I'm excited to share this story with you, so let's dive in. Is there anything more powerful in the world than a mother's love? I'm inclined to think, not. And this really, ultimately, the heart of it is going to be a story of a mother's love. And I think one of the most difficult things for a parent to experience is to watch a child struggle with something the child didn't choose. And so this is a beautiful story of a mother's unwavering love with a son who went through very, very significant struggles to ultimately achieve probably the pinnacle of human education and just really become, grow into a remarkable human being.
Welcome to the show today, Lois.
Thank you, John. I'm delighted to be here. Absolutely. And so I'm excited to explore this story because I'm early on in my own personal parenthood journey. I have a toddler and I have a number two on the way.
And so it's for me, I enjoy getting to hear the wisdom that comes from years of being a parent and now, I guess the joys of being a grandparent as well.

The Journey of Parenthood Begins

[1:19] Yes. And when these little things come into the world and they look so just adorable and delightful, you can't see the journey ahead of them, or you can't even see many of the struggles.
Interestingly, when Nicholas was very small, months old, and I was changing his nappy or his diaper, what I recognized then was he wouldn't ever roll.
It didn't matter what I did. I could leave the room and I know that my Nicholas would still be on that table.
And I didn't identify that that was a problem, number one.
And just recently, they've said he has a genetic problem with hearing imbalance. Interesting.
You know, I think it's fascinating because so I have a toddler at the time of recording, he's just over the age of two.
And I think now we're starting to observe as he starts to emerge and develop more and more independence, we're starting to observe behavior patterns.
And the one thing that I, so I'm 41, you know, I'm an older dad.
I'm starting, most people start out in their 20s or maybe their 30s, but rarely do you start out in your late 30s and early 40s. hey, that's the path.

[2:33] Right, right the advantage to this though is now I have years of accumulated life experience I also work in the field of you know, behavioral psychology and.

[2:42] Compassion is kind of the core of the work that I do And so what that that means is that I now view my son differently and his development differently than I might have ten years ago He's go when I might have just become frustrated with his behavior because I didn't understand You know, I like to say that all behavior makes sense And and you know, there's a wonderful podcast that I've listened to a few episodes from I believe it I think it's called unruffled as I'm saying here a wonderful podcast whose name escapes me But I it's called I believe it's called unruffled and the idea behind it is that there really isn't bad kids, But like behavior makes sense. It doesn't mean all behaviors ideal, but behavior makes sense. And if we can start to understand, What what is the driver behind that behavior?

Understanding Behavior and Compassion in Parenting

[3:26] We can be much more compassionate and patient as we observe the struggling, growing, developing human brain.
And so I think you got to witness something really quite unique.
Starting from there, you had this observation, but maybe the dots weren't yet getting connected.
The dots were not connected.
And the second component of that is Nicholas had ear infections from the ages of eight to 18 months.
That loss of hearing, and it's not only while the child's in the grip of the ear infection, but before and after, they are not receiving language adequately.

[4:04] That's one. And the other part is that part of the brain that works well, and Nicholas's spatial awareness works incredibly well, was still growing.
So now we've got the combination of poor language missing at a critical time of brain development because it's the brain that's impacted, followed by part of the brain that's zooming ahead.
And there we've got discrepancies between the lowest and the highest of what's growing.
Right, you know, and that's a, when we bring the child to the doctor, it's sort of for some routine checkups, and we say, hey, we observed this thing here, we see this thing here.
You know, generally speaking, if it doesn't appear to be life-threatening, oftentimes it might get overlooked as like, oh, you know what, this might just be some delayed development here or there, but it's not really a big deal.
He'll catch up at some point in time.
And it really, you know, It's like we have to be our child's best advocate.
And we live now in the age of the internet and information, and there is the opportunity to maybe advocate a little bit better as we're better informed, we can ask better questions.
But maybe perhaps, I'm not sure how old your son is currently, but we go back three or four decades, and we think there wasn't really that same understanding or opportunity or access to information that allowed us to ask more informed questions.
And very often doctors didn't like being questioned because it was seen as maybe their authority being questioned.
So I'm curious if that was kind of your experience.

Lack of Understanding in Education System

[5:32] Yes. But even then, it was the last decade of the 20th century that Nicholas went to school.

[5:39] And I thought we understood human development and language development and learning a lot better than what we did.
But in the end, we're teaching a class. He doesn't fit normal.
We really don't want him here, But, you know, we have to have it.

[5:57] And what was worse was that the teacher shouted at him every single day.
And I still, it still breaks my heart that not one person from that school, the teacher or the administrators ever called me in and said, your child's in trouble.
Teachers are shouting at him, he's staring into space, he's learning nothing.
No one did anything. It was like they accepted, this kid is dumb, he can't do anything.
Well, it doesn't matter how we treat him.

[6:30] What a thought! Yeah, that's heartbreaking to hear. Because I think, I mean, I think of how much I love my son.
And I understand that, like, you know, it's not that the entire world is going to love him or see him.
Like, I see him as just the most beautiful little human being.
And maybe I adore him more than most parents. I don't know. There's something about a parental love that it's just, it's not that he can do no wrong.
No wrong, but I just, I'm so kind of enamored with him and watching him develop and whatnot.

[6:56] So then the thought from that perspective of somebody rejecting my young child who didn't ask for a particular struggle, didn't put up his hand and say, hey, I would really like to struggle all through my developmental years. And then an adult who doesn't understand, and we would expect from teachers and educators that they would understand the diversity of sort of child neurological development and realize that a child that might act out or misbehave is not necessarily trying to make your life miserable.
They're experiencing a really strong emotion around maybe a frustration or a feeling of rejection or a feeling of being different or not fitting in and that emotion needs to be given place and, expression. But maybe there wasn't, it sounds like from what you've described, there wasn't really this sort of level of compassion or patient understanding in this situation.
And Nicholas never acted out.
Really? Yeah. Nicholas totally withdrew. He just stared into space and just wanted the world to, the floor to open up and swallow him.

Nicholas Withdraws and Communication Barriers

[8:04] And he never had the words to say, I can't do it.
I'm trying really hard, but I can't do it.
And that he couldn't understand the teacher. you've got this gorgeous little kid who just gives up. He just gave up.

[8:25] And one day, I sent him to school, and I drove him to school, and I had a two-year-old, and so he's five and a half.
And he said to me, Mummy, can you take me into school? And my two-year-old was heavy and not walking properly.
And I said, Nathaniel, my eldest, can you take Nicholas in? And it breaks my heart that I didn't take my son there because something obviously really bad had happened the day before, and he felt further humiliated.
And wondered if he could actually walk into the classroom and sit there.
That's how bad it was.
And he couldn't say to me, this is what's happening in the classroom.
Our children have so few words.

[9:08] They can't even describe what's happening to you. And I wasn't allowed to see what was there because I had this two year old.
I couldn't take him. My parents were 40 minutes away. That's, you know, all of this complications.
It's really, really, really tough. And I'll tell you something at the end.
Tell you at the end. You know, again, I think I'm really grateful that we're recording, we're doing this interview at the time when I'm just early in my parenthood journey because I feel so deeply how much I love my child and how it's almost mind boggling.
And I think only a parent can really understand this, like how much we want the absolute best for our children.
Like we, you know, really it was like, I love him more than I love myself.
And I didn't know that it was possible. I didn't know what that would feel like.
But now that I'm a parent, I just, I can't explain it. And so again, the thought of this, you know, a sweet child just withdrawing.
And so much happens in the early developmental years where there really isn't the linguistic ability to express what's happening.
And so I think back again to the difference of me as at 40 being a parent versus me at 30, to understand that, you know, for example, My son is misbehaving.
Maybe he's climbing on something he shouldn't climb on, for example.

A Mother's Guilt and Compassion for Her Child

[10:25] He's trying to do something that he knows will get my attention.
He's trying to bring something to my attention.
And so I think about your sweet little boy here trying to, in his own little way, bring something to your attention and say something is not right.
And so you yourself, as you're witnessing your child kind of experience this, you mentioned maybe the sense of guilt at that time, like not being able to go in and help him when you kind of look back in hindsight.
In those kind of moments in time, And so, you're a mother of three at this point in time, if I understand correctly.
You know, your life is busy. You're trying to navigate multiple parenthood.
That itself is a challenge.
When you kind of reflect back on that time, do you feel as though you can have a sense of compassion for younger Lois who is just trying to make sense of, you know, parenthood as it was at that time?
A sense of compassion. I feel I've failed.
I wished I had supported particularly the eldest sons far more effectively.
My eldest son was the rabble-rouser.
He learned at the speed of light. And you've got my Nicholas learning at the pace of a snail.
So you've got these extremes. And because the eldest one did learn at the speed of light, I didn't understand why he wasn't doing well in school. Just get on with it. Do it. And it's very interesting now, you know.

[11:53] And then you've got this Nicholas who just looks like way out of the world. He doesn't even belong in school. And basically that's what the teacher said to me. I don't know how I'm going to teach him. Day six of school. How am I going to teach him?

[12:07] I wish it wasn't in my class. Right, you know, and I think about, so this is an interesting, maybe we could say an indictment of the education system or the public education system as a whole, where a teacher goes in and they're handed maybe 30 students or 25 students and you have to teach all of these kids and you're essentially a glorified babysitter at that point, my brother's a teacher. And you know, I, because Could you imagine, let's say, for example, being a parent of 25 children? My goodness, how would you keep them all in line? In a sense, I share that to express a degree of compassion for the position of the teacher and recognize, okay, but that being said, there's a missing piece here.
There's something that should have been here. Instead of just saying, I wash my hands of this. I don't want this kid. I don't, you know, why didn't the adult in the room say, we need some help here?

[13:06] It still blows my mind. Why someone didn't say that if they knew that that early on.

The Dilemma of Seeking Help for a Struggling Child

[13:13] Why didn't someone come to me and say, let's look at alternatives.
Right. You know, and now this is an interesting dilemma, deviating from the story.
Story. If I had removed my son from school, if I had the opportunity to remove him, and I failed and sent him back to school the following year, the school would have said to me, ìWell, you should have left him with us. We would have done a better job, wouldnít we?î Right, right. And actually, just for listeners who might not know, because they might be hearing the Australian accent, but where was it that your son was going to school?
We were living at the time in Brisbane, Australia, which is our home, and the younger two boys were born in Brisbane.
And my husband is a university professor, so he was teaching at the local university, which was the biggest university in the state, and one of what they called the Big 8 universities in Australia.
So, it was a top-notch university. He got his PhD from Oxford and 20 plus years later, Nicholas gets his PhD from Oxford.

[14:23] And that's a gap that we wanna kind of bridge here through the telling of the story because that's really remarkable when we think about going from here to there.
And so at this time, were you a stay-at-home mom just caring for your kids?
I don't wanna say just a stay-at-home mom because I think it's the most noble of professions, but were you working as well?

[14:44] You're right. I was a stay-at-home mom. And actually, that becomes critical in the story.
Because when you've got a child who is as far behind, as far out of the normal as Nicholas.

[14:58] I don't know what you do. I don't know how you do it. If you're working all day and then come home to this child who is struggling, I would not have had the emotional energy to deal with with Nicholas.
So that's a real complication for today's generation.
Absolutely. Really, really, really difficult struggle that we have.

The Unpaid Work of Motherhood and its Value

[15:18] And we don't value the mother, we don't value the child.
Yeah, and that's a very interesting, because motherhood in a sense is unpaid work, and I'm still, so my wife is on maternity leave, so I feel very fortunate that, and in Canada we get quite generous maternity leave, my wife can take up to 18 months.
And with our first one, we took the full 18 months. It was so needed.
And then she also had the benefit of, because of COVID, her work transitioned to remotely.
My wife teaches English to refugees to Canada, which is really quite remarkable.
She was able to work in the evenings when I was not working and she was able to work from home.
So it meant that one of us could always be available for my little boy.
And I get the benefit of working from home as well. And so I recognize we were in a really fortunate situation where we get to have that.
But yeah, I agree, for somebody who...

[16:11] Would be going and working all day and just feeling drained at the end of the day and then coming home, and wondering like, what do I do with this child? I don't even know what to do and I don't hear anybody offering suggestions to help. It would feel like a very difficult and kind of helpless situation. And so if we kind of move along the timeline a little bit, so by the time Nicholas is really in kindergarten, the earliest school, it's already recognized that he's learning at the the pace of a snail, as you said, development is extremely slow, and his educational outlook doesn't look very good. As he moved into, say, the first grade or year one or year two and so on, how did that situation progress? I say progress, maybe it was regress, but...
No, no, no. This is where the story changes. My husband, I said, is a professor. So in In 1994, he failed.
Testing revealed he could read 10 words.
He had no strengths, and he had a low IQ.

[17:10] Good. We're in a really condemning basket, or a condemned basket.

A Turning Point: Learning to Read in Oxford

[17:17] In 1995, my husband has study leave back in Oxford, and the family go with him, and he's going for six months.
I go prepared. I take a series of books to help Nicholas learn to read called Success for All.
And I send the eldest one to school, I send the youngest one to kindergarten, so I've got Nicholas by myself. And we start using these books, isolated words on the page.
Decode three letters, come up with the word, and read through each isolated word.
End of the page, we go back to the first word, and Nicholas has got no clue what's going on.
So I started to get frustrated.
You know, he's not getting it, he's not getting it, he's not getting it.
My mother-in-law was with me, and she said, Lois, put away what's not working and make learning fun!

Discovering the Power of Poetry in Learning

[18:04] What can you do? What can I do? Nicholas can rhyme words and he can see patterns. I know what I can do. I can write some poems because I'll give me rhyming words and it'll give a little story around the rhyming words. I wrote the first poem. The transformation in our classroom was astounding. Instead of having a child who's frustrated, he's smiling and we're repeating it and we're loving it and he's learning it. My mother-in-law did the illustrations.

[18:36] Because I had one success, I continued success after success every day until you come to the double O's. And I wrote double O's as in Cook, look and book. And I wrote a poem about Captain James Cook, the last of the great explorers. And it was Captain Cook had a notion there's a gap in the map in the great big ocean. He took a look without the help of any book, hoping to find a quiet little nook. So you've got this really tiny poem with these huge ideas. Christopher, go away.
Chris, my husband's just come into the kitchen and making a noise. Excuse me, I hope you can block this out. Well, we'll edit this one out. Thank you.
You. And so you've got these huge ideas. And while we're doing this, we're also seeing books and maps in the city of Oxford and around the university, everywhere. And Nicola says to me, the first question he asks is, can I see Captain Cook's original maps?

[19:42] As I thought about this, that question does not come from a child with low IQ.
Right, absolutely. That's the first question.
And then he says to me, who came before Captain Cook?
And I said, oh, that's easy, Nicholas, that was Christopher Columbus.
And he said, and who came before Columbus?

[20:07] I'm blown away, because I have never thought of who came before Columbus.
And we're in the city of Oxford, and the guy who came before Columbus was Ptolemy.
And Ptolemy drew the first map of the world in 230-250 A.D. without leaving Alexandria in Egypt.
He took the information of sailors and drew.
And so we go to the city of Oxford, we go to the Bodleian Library and say, where would we find a Ptolemy map?
The lady leans around from behind the counter, picks up a book, plops it on the table and says, this is a book of Ptolemy maps, that'll be five pound please.
And that's the start of the story.
Now the teaching has gone from teaching of decoding to learning, and Nicholas has got a reason to learn.
And then one lady gave me a series of books called Hear It, See It, Say It, Do It that helped me teach him to decode. So we're attacking learning from multiple phases, but the poetry came first.

[21:17] And the decoding came second, and it was the poetry that was the driver of Nicholas's learning.
That's fascinating. You know, when you mentioned Captain James Cook, so I have also New Zealand or Kiwi heritage. My grandfather's from Gisborne, and Gisborne is the first city in the world that sees the sun according to how we sort of delineate our maps and our lines of topography. And in, Gisborne, there's a statue of Captain James Cook. And although I've been to New Zealand twice, I have yet to go to the city of Gisborne and I always wanted to go there as a child because I saw a picture of The statue of Captain James Cook this great explorer and so I wanted to go and see this faraway land that he discovered, you know, I think about how we We take for granted, Like having sat nav or satellite navigation having GPS having Google Maps or Bing Maps or Apple Maps you know or we just punch a destination in and the whole world is essentially been mapped out and, And it's almost like I think it's hard for us to even conceptualize I'm gonna sail on a wooden ship that doesn't have an engine that has giant sails, going in a direction that I don't even know where we're gonna get to and.

[22:24] Sailing into the great unknown But I think I'll probably hit land at some point and then I'm gonna draw a picture of what I saw as best as I can Like this is this is incredible stuff. And so I think it's really wonderful that that Nicholas got very, very curious about this.
Oh, exactly, exactly. Well, I'll continue the story because we go back to Australia and I saw the diagnostician who had done the testing the prior year.

Challenging Stereotypes and Recognizing Different Types of Intelligence

[22:52] And I said to her, Nicholas has just asked these amazing questions.
She stood in front of me, put her hands on her hips and said, well, he's the worst child I've seen in 20 years of teaching.

[23:02] The worst child she's ever seen in 20 years of teaching. That's a very limited frame of mind.
I actually feel kind of sorry for this individual that that's what she thought.
But because I know now that we've come to understand that there's at least eight different types of intelligences and when we think about a standard IQ test, it doesn't really, or maybe now it's changed, but I think when I last took an IQ test, I scored maybe 168 or something along those lines.
But I have a brain that works really well for that sort of standard type of learning in particular because I have a very good memory and I have a kind of an engineering brain where I can assemble things really quickly.
It turns out I actually have ADHD.
I found that out at the age of 41.

[23:49] So for the first 40 years of my life, I had no idea why my brain worked differently than other people.
But it turns out it's almost like having a superpower that I never, I mean, I was the annoying kid in class because I had all the answers, just one after another like this without ever having to study.
And the kid, oh boy.
But I had no idea that other people's brains didn't work like this.
I didn't know any differently.
And so I share that because I think about St. Nicholas, for example, has this really unique brain, this unique type of intelligence.
And it was a matter of like unlocking, how do I access that intelligence, help him to navigate the world the way that he sees the world, because so often what we assume is somebody who is dumb is actually someone who could be very intelligent but sees the world in a different way.

[24:39] 100% agree. And that's why that time away was so important, that I was given the freedom Bye.

The Trauma of Childhood Education

[24:46] To do anything. Because if we'd stayed in school, we would have been stuck with decoding.
He couldn't do it. He couldn't remember it. And the complication that you've got an IQ test that says he's dumb. When the child fails, it's because he's dumb. It's not because I, the teacher failed. And to be able to do anything with Nicholas and tap into it. And I don't know where to tell this other story, but let's just throw it in there. Okay. 2018, Nicholas, gets his degree with a PhD. He's confident. He's articulate. He's lived around the world to get there. That's all right. And I said to him, Nicholas, I don't know what happened And in first grade, I really didn't know what was going on, and no one told me.
Can you tell me? My son cried, and not a word escaped from his mouth.
And that's when I recognized the trauma that happened when he was six years old was still, there. It was still in his brain, still unattended, and no one had helped him get through that.

[25:55] So trauma, yeah, the trauma is this, gets recorded in the timeless part of the brain.
And I'm so grateful that now we have a level of understanding around trauma that time doesn't make it go away.
There was this idea for so long, just you'll get over it. And what's wrong with you?
Why can't you just get over this?
You know, I've been through trauma and PTSD myself, and I didn't understand it until I started searching answers for my own struggles, and I came to understand that, oh, trauma doesn't just disappear with time. have to get professional help to work through this.

[26:34] And our children are so young. You know, you're talking about your two-year-old and your baby.
Six years old is the, you know, I don't know why we are so hard and demand so much of little children who are just trying to survive and just trying to learn like everybody else.
And that's another story.

Children's Behavior as a Cry for Help

[26:56] Yeah, well, I mean, children are beautiful. And that's not to say that children are perfect little angels.
I mean, they come with a human nature.
They come with their own desires and so on and so forth. But really very few children come into this world with say sociopathic or pathological tendencies It's a very small percentage. And so most kids what we call.

[27:15] Troublemaker behavior is actually a cry for help. I don't get it. Something doesn't work something bad has happened me in some way I need help and you know I think about how our education system was set up and kind of standardized for a certain type of intelligence and And we failed to, and what's really interesting is I think of a number of people who've been highly successful in the world who we look up to and admire, and it turns out many of them didn't complete a university degree, because their brain didn't fit into the standard mold, and that was seen as a detriment when in turn actually the ability to see the world through a different lens meant that they could be extremely innovative and creative in their approach to the world.
This is not to knock university education, but to say, I believe, and so I believe what's kind of been happening these last decade or two is really we are undergoing this evolution of our understanding of education, evolution of our understanding of education.
Where we're- Yeah, where we're recognizing that we have to, if we want to actually, because education I think was made to make little factory workers, essentially.
Yes, yes. And we only wanted normal. We only wanted normal.

[28:26] And we'd find something else for the others. Yeah, yeah, and so I think here, so you've unlocked the code, if you will, to Nicholas's brain.
Now, how does Nicholas, as a child, interact with his brothers, maybe after this starts to happen and maybe this has been unlocked?
And I mean, what sort of relationship does he have with his brothers? Interesting.
He's quiet and more difficult.
The eldest one, you know, flings out information all the time and talks all the time.
And Nicholas, you have to think and give him time.
But he was always the peacemaker in our family. Between the youngest and the, between everyone.

Nicholas's Rapid-Fire Thoughts and Challenging Language Funnel

[29:07] What's interesting with Nicholas is that the brain spins around at 100 miles an hour in the head or faster, it spins fast.
But to get from the thoughts, the thoughts that happen.
In any way. Through language, through to language, is a funnel. And it's a really tough funnel, which is why when he asked, can I see Captain Cook's original maps? That's not just something that popped into his head. There was a lot of thinking going on before he had those words come out. And the same is true today. Okay, the challenge for today, Nicholas is on this extreme.
He fits on the 99th percentile of spatial awareness on a test.

Understanding Nicholas' Learning Challenges and Strengths

[29:53] He sits on the second percentile for language and phonemic awareness and struggle with those sorts of things. So, and when you interview someone, what are you seeing? Not the strength, the weakness. And the work that he does to do an interview and to apply for jobs is phenomenal.
Right, absolutely. So as he progresses through education, he moves through maybe the elementary years, three, four, five, six, seven kind of thing. Does he go back to a standard public school or is he educated enough? Yeah. And do you enter into it now much more informed so you can advocate for him to say, here's how you might be able to work more successfully with him and not Are you frustrated by him?

[30:40] I'm never frustrated by my Nicholas. I learned, this is the way he learns.
I was frustrated by the school system because after we got the diagnosis of the worst child I've seen in 20 years of teaching, something extraordinary happened.
That afternoon, the reading teacher sent Nicholas home with two sentences to learn the word saw, S-A-W.
Sentence was, I saw a cat climb up a tree. And the second sentence was, I saw a man rob a bank.
Nicholas stood in front of me and he read, I saw a cat and he stopped.
And he went back and he said, I was a cat and he shook his head, no, no.
And then he said, I had a cat and I asked her to cat and then he just handed me the paper.
It took me a while to work out what was going on.
This is what put the fire in my belly.
The word saw has three meanings.

[31:32] I saw a cat, Nicholas stopped because he's cutting the cat in half.
Because he's got the concrete meaning. Both sentences only provide the abstract meaning of the word saw. They fail to teach him what you have to do as a reader to work out what to do with that sentence. The failure lies in how we teach.

[31:53] Then I became a reading specialist and I read this paper that I have right here in front of me called Beyond the Deficit Theory, written by an Australian professor.
And what did it say? Children fail to learn to read because we give incomplete demonstrations of how the written language works.

Transforming Teaching Methods and Advocating for Nicholas' Needs

[32:11] What happened to my son? Incomplete demonstrations of how the language works.
And how quickly we flip around to, he hasn't learned it because he's stupid.
That's what put the fire in my belly. And whenever a problem came home, I, as a stay-at-home mum, would take 24 hours to think, how am I going to teach this word to my child?
I became very aware that concrete words, words that you can touch and see are easy.
Words like would, could and could, or of and and, are much more difficult for our children to learn.
Okay, we've got a problem. How are we going to teach them? I would spend the day working on something, so Nicholas would have it in the afternoon, and instead of it being, just learn this kid, how much fun can we make it?
And it transformed the way I teach.

[33:03] And that's what drove me to become a reading specialist. Right.
Absolutely. And so, I guess what I was thinking earlier is, were you able to advocate for Nicholas to the educators, to the teachers that he was going to have, that, hey, he listens differently, we now have this better understanding of how he learns.

[33:24] Does that mean, you know, were they able to sort of incorporate that into their educational practice?
Like, or did he get an educational assistant? Or how did he navigate his way through the elementary going to high school system?
Ah, that was another extraordinary story. That's why I wrote Reversed.
He had, worst teacher in grade one, he had phenomenal teachers in grade two and the teacher in grade two adapted the learning to meet his needs.
Like the first time he was in grade two with her, she gave him spelling words, rhyming words with cat, hat, rat, bat and so on.
He and I could do that at home and so we went to school by the front, he could spell every one of those words. And so the teachers were really good after that.
The teacher he remembers most was his third grade teacher, who he just fell in love with because she read books to him. And she accommodated Nicholas.
And in grade four, the teacher said, he's such a curious kid.
OK, the extraordinary thing. If we'd stayed in Australia, Nicholas would have been in the bottom of the class.
Still curious, but slow with everything. In 1999, our family moved to Lubbock, Texas.
Now, if you know anything about the United States, Lubbock, Texas is in the middle of West Texas.

[34:51] You know, hours from anywhere. And he repeated for a second time in Lubbock.
He repeated grade four.

[35:01] With that, the gap between his learning and the classroom learning has shrunk.
He was able to take in more in the classroom.
He learned to read, he learned to write, he stayed in the classroom.

From the Bottom of the Class to the Top 20%

[35:14] Nicholas always worked so hard.
And in fact, I identified nine factors that happened in Lubbock that would not have happened in Brisbane, Australia.
In Lubbock, Texas, he went from the bottom of the class to the top 20% of the high school class In physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, you name it, he did it.
And it's not a normal story, but that change and the things that happened in Lubbock, it.

[35:46] Enhanced and provided the growth that he needed to go from the bottom to the top.

[35:52] Right. It blows me away even today. And so as he graduates high school, instead of being the worst kid ever, did he know that he was going to go to Oxford? I mean, I've been Oxford for anyone who has not visited it. It's this gorgeous university, this white sandstone buildings, this beautiful beautiful campus. I mean, as he was beginning to learn in advance and his intelligence is beginning to shine through and he's performing better in school, what sort of led him to know this is what I want to pursue as higher education?
I think that really came during his undergraduate degrees. And now this is where our family is extraordinary. Nicholas went back to Tasmania. My husband took a job back in Tasmania and And he did undergraduate degrees in Australia.
He started off in engineering.
And engineering and mathematics closely tied. And because Tasmania is small, the engineering and mathematics students flipped backwards and forwards to do their studies.
And Nicholas just kept doing more and more mathematics.
And I think it was while he was there that he fell in love with the mathematics professor.
There were half a dozen kids, students, doing honours mathematics.

[37:20] It's a little hothouse. They're feeding off each other.
The professor is renowned for inspiring people.
And it was while he was there, I went to Nicholas's dorm room and he had on the wall, Master's Degree, PhD.
He had on the wall beside him, Master's degree, PhD.
And then as a scholarship came up for Oxford, he applied for it and he got it.

Oxford: Achieving a PhD in Applied Mathematics

[37:48] And Oxford, I'm putting my finger number one, because Oxford is the number one university in the world. Or was or competes with Cambridge and Harvard and MIT.
Right. Yeah, absolutely. It's a very, very prestigious institution. And so he ultimately goes and acquires or achieves, I should say, a PhD in Applied Mathematics, which is remarkable.
And so here we have a six-year-old who's thought to be as dumb as a post and unable to learn, now achieving a PhD in one of the most difficult disciplines, Applied Mathematics.

The Journey of Acceptance and Moving Forward

[38:28] At one of the most prestigious institutions in the world. Quite a remarkable arc. And I think I think a lot of credit goes to you for your persistence.
And it's natural for us to want to look back and go, I wish I could have done this, I should have done that.
And we live in this world of should have, could have, would have, and we need to, and I speak to my clients a lot about this, finding this place of acceptance.
I did the best I could with what I had at the time.
And so I make peace with that. And now I move forward because we really don't, you know, so acceptance is not about quitting or giving up or things like that, but it's about finding peace with, I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. And so here we find ourselves now.

[39:14] Your son, what year was it he graduated with his PhD? 2019.
Okay, so a little over five years ago, roughly five years ago at the time of recording.
And that's our picture. There we go. For those who are listening, we're seeing a picture of his graduation at Oxford and his cap and gown there. So, and so since I'm curious what the conversations have been with Nicholas as an adult and maybe particularly after achieving his PhD.

[39:45] You know, is there the opportunity to have more in-depth conversations about past experiences in learning and for him to be able to kind of look back and say, I know you mentioned there was unresolved trauma there that kind of came out after a conversation, but what sort of conversations did you have with him after he got his PhD? The second part of that story was I knew I couldn't help him with the trauma, but I said, tell us about the learning you and I did in 1995.
And his face went from crying to absolute laughter.
And he said, I'll never forget the poems you wrote for me. And he named the poems.
He named the poem. And then he said, learning about mapping and the mapping of the world taught me to love learning and I never want to stop learning.
And then finally he said to me, you wrote a poem poem about a witcher's spell. I said, I did, Nicholas! And he's laughing. That's Elixir.

The Power of Emotion in Learning

[40:54] And Nicholas started laughing about this poem, about the witcher's spell, and he said, we wrote the ingredients for the witcher's spell. And I said, we did, Nicholas! And what's funny, that poem didn't make it into my book, that story didn't make it into my book, because I deemed my poem too poor. What I ignored was the implications, the emotional implications for learning for the child. I'm thinking I'm teaching the child about SP World, spin, spill, spot, spell.

[41:30] I'm not. He's learning that learning is so exciting and this is so much fun.
And the learning of the SP words just happens in conjunction with that. But the ultimate, what did he take away? That learning is so exciting and this is so funny and it's the funniest poem in the whole wide world. We as teachers and parents forget the power of emotion in learning. And so, all the time that Nicholas is learning, so am I. And in fact, I am learning more than him. He's learning to learn to get through life. I'm learning to teach other children to read. And I am blown away by the things that I did right by mistake in that year of 1995.
I love the things that we do right by mistake. I'm a former nanotechnology researcher So I was involved in chemistry and physics and quantum mechanics and high-level mathematics and whatnot, Unfortunately, I'd say unfortunately, but because I had ADHD though I got bored very easily and I just jumped out of my PhD program and joined the Navy as you do.

[42:41] And became a marine engineer Instead for a period of time until I left the Navy and traveled the world and so on And, but what you've said there is discovering or rediscovering the joy in learning.

Unlocking Passion in Education

[42:54] It doesn't have to be a chore if we can unlock what somebody is passionate about.
Now, I guess I'm curious, has Nicholas ever spoken publicly about his educational journey?

The emotional challenge of talking about a difficult topic

[43:08] That's a tough question.
He's done some on YouTube with me, But he actually finds it, as you can imagine, very difficult to talk about.
Incredibly difficult to talk about. And he's under a therapist now, and that has helped him.
And one day he might, but he just finds it, I think, so emotionally challenging.
Absolutely. Well, I love that you are the storyteller for him, and you of course have a firsthand perspective being the one who played such a significant role in his learning and education and fostering this love for learning, and you yourself, your own personal growth and transformation.
We think about between the before and after.
This isn't just a story of Nicholas transformation. It's your transformation as well, where you go from a struggling, frustrated mother to one who has not only helped Nicholas, but you're helping others as well through your acquired skillset, your life experience, your struggles, mean that you can now help others so they don't struggle in the way that Nicholas did.
And so you're opening new learning opportunities for remarkable minds.
I think that in itself is just amazing.

[44:27] Thank you, because what we didn't mention was while I'm teaching Nicholas, I realized that I struggled in school and I am dyslexic.
So for me as a dyslexic person to write a book was also a huge, huge component.
Yeah. Well, it's really a delight to share your story. You bring such joy and enthusiasm and sharing, such passion behind the story.
I think that's what really draws people and engages them.
I would love one day, if I ever have the opportunity to invite Nicholas onto the show, if he ever gets to the place where he feels like he could talk about it, it would be a wonderful privilege for me to share with him a conversation about his story, his learning arc.
And I just think so many lives could be touched by hearing, it's such a powerful story. I love, that you get to share it and I would love to hear it from his perspective too. So I really, Here's me hoping and wishing that he gets to the place where he is able to share his amazing, incredible, inspiring story with others to help others continue to learn.

Hoping for Nicholas to share his inspiring story

[45:32] And so as we close up the episode today, first of all, let's just let people know, if they wanna connect with you, say, you know what, this Lois lady, she is just remarkable.
I would like to somehow see if I could have a conversation with her about what it is that she does, or maybe she can help the kid or something like that. Where do people find you?
The easiest place to find me is on my website at loisletchford.com, otherwise LinkedIn.

[45:57] Now I'm starting to reduce where I am, LinkedIn. I do have been on Facebook, but recently everything's dropped a bit.
Twitter, Instagram, Instagram's the best one. Keep it simple.
I love that. And so it's maybe hard to distill it down to this, but I always like to ask my guests, if someone has listened to this conversation today and they could just take one nugget away from this conversation, what is it that you would like to share with people?

[46:26] Believe in your child. Believe they are capable of being future rocket scientists. I love that.
Thank you so much, Lois, for being on today. It has truly been a pleasure.
Thank you, John.
Thank you so much for tuning in to Between the Before and After.
If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review because that helps this podcast, to reach and inspire more people.
I love exploring the stories that take place between the before and after, the powerful experiences that shape who we become.
And I love human potential. I love the possibilities that lie within us.
So whatever you may be up against, I hope these stories inspire you because if you're still here, Our story isn't done yet, so keep moving forward.