[0:02] Welcome back to Between the Before and After, a podcast about the stories that shape us. I'm your host, Coach Jon McLernon. Each episode, I bring you an inspiring guest with a moving story that shines a light on the power of the human spirit. I'm excited to share this story with you, so let's dive in.
Imagine being seven years old and being treated in the most cruel and unconscionable way, and no child should ever have to face this, but this is a cruel and harsh reality that we are up against, and we need to confront this very evil.
With me today is Megan Conner, and I often say I'm excited to explore stories like this, but it's not because I'm excited about the topics we're gonna talk about, but I'm excited about the possibility of continuing to raise awareness, and get more people speaking about this issue because it's very, very necessary.
So Megan, thank you so much. Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.
[0:55] Awesome. we dive into your story, I always like to let people know kind of where you're at right now and what it is that you're doing, and then we're going to look at how you got to this place where, this is what you're doing. Yeah, I'm actually speaking out in advocacy for victims and survivors right now. I've got a YouTube channel and an Instagram and TikTok that I've been, posting content on for other survivors. I wrote a book about my healing experiences, and I'm, I'm really in a position where I'm working with, as a coach with other survivors, trying to help them, plug them into resources that can help them navigate this new life after survival.
[1:36] And that's, you know, it's so interesting. You came across my path here at this time because I'm actually producing another show exposing this in another arena here. So, um.
[1:50] If we could just kind of lay a little bit of groundwork here, where was it you grew up and what was kind of the environment you grew up in leading to the time when you began to experience abuse? Well, I grew up kind of all over the place. My dad was in the Air Force when I was very young, and so we moved around quite a bit. Very strict military sort of parenting. And in addition, I was raised in the Mormon church. And so that adds another layer of strictness and culture to that. And so that's sort of the environment that I grew up in. And when I was trafficked, we were in a situation where both of my parents were working, and they needed a babysitter to take care of us kids before and after school. So we would go to their house to wait for the bus, and then we'd go to their house after school. And it turned out that the husband in that situation, you know, a couple of adults who were caring for kids.
And he was, he had a photo studio in his basement and he groomed myself and some of the other neighborhood kids to be a part of that pornography ring basically, where he put us in sexual situations with other children and took pictures and videos of what was happening.
And then either invited people in to watch those videos or watch them being filmed and then distributed them to other people and sold the pictures and videos as well.
Megan's journey with the Mormon church and leaving it behind
[3:18] Wow. And I can just say like, already I feel like my stomach churning when I hear that.
I mean, I have two young children at the time of recording, they're two in two months.
Yeah. And the thought of somebody doing that to my children, it would bring me very close to wanting to commit murder.
If I can be perfectly honest here, I know I'm a very loving and empathetic person, but somebody that can do that, it's unconscionable evil.
And so, were your parents ever aware of this? Or, and I guess your parents were a part of the church.
Maybe we'll take one step back and what are your early memories of being a part of the Mormon church?
And actually, are you still part of the church today?
[3:58] Well, I was, like I say, raised in the church. So I was born into a family that was very devout practicing Mormons. All my aunts, uncles, and cousins were in the church. And so it was really an expectation that we become full-fledged members and that we live our lives according to a certain path that they sort of have for you. They want you to grow up learning about the church, go to seminary in high school, serve a mission, get married in the temple. That's kind of like the Mormon track that happens. And I had a lot of trouble with it, especially as a young teen, partially because of the abuse that I went through as a child, but I also just really never felt like I fit into that box. I just had a lot of personality traits that I didn't agree with some of the things that were being taught, and I had a really hard time staying on that path.
And so I left the church for a little while as a teenager and then came back after my first child was born because I really didn't know how else to do life. I didn't know how else to raise my kids except for in the church. And so I was very active, devout member for another 22 years while my children were growing up. And really just within the past five years after my divorce started to reframe everything in my life in the context of, is this healthy for me or not?
[5:22] And I eventually came to the conclusion that that high demand religion was not healthy for me or healthy for my children.
[5:30] And so sort of little by little, we've distanced ourselves and now I'm officially 100% out.
[5:36] Okay, and thank you for sharing that. So if we go back to at the age of seven, And what you remember about this, you know, I think the term grooming comes up and it's starting to enter our sort of public discourse and lexicon a little bit more commonly.
Sometimes it doesn't get used in appropriate context, but if you could give a little bit of background for those who might be still unfamiliar, unclear about what that looks like.
Like, what do you recall about the grooming process that you experienced and not just yourself, but those who are part of your community who are also groomed?
Because grooming is not just directed at a victim.
[6:15] Right, exactly. I think to speak in general terms, grooming really refers to the process by which a predator gains closer and closer access to a victim.
And it's a process by which they make you more and more comfortable with the things that they want to do for you, with you, or whatever the case is.
So grooming can take place not only with a sexual predator, but with other people, narcissistic abusers and things like that.
It's just, it's, if you think of the frog in the boiling pot of water example, you know, it's very much like that.
You don't really realize that it's happening until you're in a situation that's pretty horrifying.
And so for me personally, you know, being around the age of seven, if you think about childhood development, that's an age at which children are really trying to discover who they are as a human being and how they fit in the greater world around them. And it's an age at which most children believe and trust all of the adults in their lives.
And if they're given a narrative about something from a trusted adult, then they're going to adopt that narrative pretty readily. And that's exactly what happened to me.
[7:30] The predator would tell me things about myself, for example.
He would tell me that the only reason that I existed was for other people's pleasure.
And he would tell me that this is what I was made for, it was what I was born for, this is what everybody does, this is what all females are for.
And that if you tell somebody about this secret thing, then there's something really wrong with you, your parents probably won't love you anymore if you tell them that this is going on. So this is just between us, you can't ever tell anybody. The first response, well I mean maybe you saw my actual reaction, but I mean the first words that come out of my mouth are, holy shit.
Challenging Stereotypes of Predators
[8:15] And I'm not, let's say I'm not entirely unfamiliar with how this process looks or works because of some way of their work, and still when I hear it, I, you know, my mind is kind of blown. And part of, of the reason for that being is because I guess my brain doesn't operate that way.
One of the things that is, I think, so difficult for people to reconcile is maybe this picture that we have of what a predator looks like. You know, I remember as a kid it was like the white van outside the school with like the guy with the dirty mustache and offering candy to kids, you know, and just like this sort of gross slimy sort of thing.
Predators often don't feed on their prey.
That mold. The individual that was was grooming you, how did they fit into like the greater community that you were a part of?
[9:01] Well, he was just a regular guy in the neighborhood, not somebody that I knew before we went into the babysitting situation. And the the wife in that situation was definitely a part of the grooming as well. She spoke in a very sing-songy voice, and she sort of made us feel comfortable in her home, and she let us watch HBO, which was something we weren't allowed to watch at our house. And so it was, you know, it was a place that we wanted to be. And she had a child of her own. She had two children, actually, and one of them was close to my age, but we didn't spend a lot of time together. But it was sort of of that environment. We sat down and colored together. We watched TV together. So it was very much like making us comfortable in her home before she then said, I think today we'll let you go down into the basement and see if you like it down there and see what you think. So it was very much a, okay, I'm a curious kid. I want to know what's going on in the basement. They made it sound fun and interesting.
[10:03] Right. And I think so, and maybe this is a sort of hindsight, but, you know, was the wife herself groomed or the wife herself was a part of this process, an active participant, an active knowing participant who wasn't like, pardon me, could we say like under the spell of the groomer?
Yeah, of course. It's very hard for me to say, you know, when I, when we moved away from that town and that was the way I was able to get away from the situation, luckily I was only 11 years old, and I had no perspective in how to frame that.
You know, looking back at it now as an adult, I can definitely see where both things could be possible.
You know, it's very possible that she was herself being abused and controlled.
And it's also possible that she was a part of it and taking advantage of it as well.
So, but there's no way for me to know that because as a kid, you can't detect those things really well.
[10:57] Of course, and I think you shared a couple things that are super, super, super important here, because I don't know how to say this nicely, but there's some real ignorance out there when it comes to situations like this where people would say, well, gosh, how did you not know that something was wrong with this situation? Or like, why didn't you say something to your parents or things like that? And you expressed like how this was framed to you. What do you recall about like the first time that you you were brought downstairs in that situation?
[11:31] I just remember really how the room was set up. I remember sort of being shocked that it wasn't, didn't look like a fun place. It was dark and dingy and you know there were lights and cameras and things set up that I had never seen before so I didn't really really know what to make of any of it. You know, there are also some parts of my memory that are not complete. And so while I remember some very specific horrific things, I don't remember every detail about it. So I just remember, you know, I remember going down there and I remember being very, very scared to do anything that would anger this man. You know, he was a, he was a larger man. His face was very stern. He spoke in a very matter-of-fact stern way. There was no kindness to it. And so I really felt as a child very trapped by that because I was terrified of making him angry.
Entering the Basement: A Shift in Interactions
[12:29] I know it's almost like I want to take a moment and pause and let some of this sink in for those that are listening to this as well to just really kind of, So can the gravity of this situation prior to going down to the basement?
What sort of interactions had you had with this man?
And was it like if any was in a different way than like one like there was a shift once you were brought downstairs I had only ever seen him coming and going, Through the front door of the house prior to that. I knew that he came in the front door and went to the basement I knew he came out of the basement and went out the front door And so I didn't have any face-to-face interaction with him at all until I was actually in the basement, Mm-hmm. And had you seen any other children going down there prior to you being brought down there? Yeah. Yep, And you know, there was no of course no understanding what was actually taking place, right?
[13:22] Right, and so you're brought down to this situation and now there's this very stern big, angry, potentially angry-looking man that's terrifying you and say, okay, these are the things that you're going to do.
And we don't necessarily have to be sensationalist to the graphic, that's not what we're looking for here, but are you comfortable or able to share a little bit about kind of like what actually started taking place and maybe how it escalated?
Yeah, I can just say that he used this metaphor with me of going to McDonald's and he said, have you ever been to McDonald's? Yes, you've been to McDonald's. And when you go to McDonald's, you get French fries, right? Yes, you get French fries, because everybody gets French fries at McDonald's. You wouldn't even go to McDonald's if you weren't getting French fries. And he explained to me basically that I was the French fries. And it was my responsibility to make sure that everybody that came in that room got French fries, that they got them the way that they wanted it.
And it was my responsibility to make sure that they enjoyed the French fries.
And then it was my responsibility to not tell anybody what was going on down there.
And he did threaten me, threatened my family. He said, your parents are going to be angry with you.
You're going to be hurt.
Your parents are going to be hurt. Your family is going to be hurt.
So this has to stay in the basement. it's never going to leave this room.
[14:42] And so you and you're absolutely terrified and and you think like I cannot say anything to my parents because he might hurt them, too, Right, and so now you're trapped in a situation It's hard to get out of and your parents at this point have no awareness that this is that this is taking place, right, they had no idea and.
Fragmented Memory and Unseen Changes
[15:01] Was there what did your and again, we're kind of look at hindsight and and you mentioned I'm glad you mentioned a fragmented memory because and maybe we'll address this a bit later in terms of like prosecution or like going after the evil individuals that do things like this.
But when your memory is fragmented, it's hard to recall exact facts, let alone the fact that you were a child, that you're being traumatized.
[15:24] And so it's sometimes even hard to piece it all together. Did your parents, from what you recall, ever observe like a change in your pattern of behavior or mood or demeanor and like ask you if anything was going on?
I don't really remember them asking me if something was going on.
I remember being deeply, deeply unhappy.
And I remember wanting to run away from home a lot. And I remember feeling like I didn't have anybody to talk to.
And I remember feeling like I was the only one who was going through this, even though I knew other kids were down there too, I didn't feel safe to talk to the other kids either.
And so I felt very scared, very alone. And, you know, I think my parents at the time, had sort of their own issues and struggles going on.
And I think that they didn't, they didn't really notice any change in my behavior.
Or if they did, they didn't bring it up to me.
And it wasn't until, you know, many years later, really about 10 years ago, that I started being able to process these things and sort of work through all of that trauma.
So up until, you know, 10 years ago, Nobody in my family talked about any of this trauma.
[16:38] And there's a complex, I think, web of reasons why this occurs.
And I think we'll explore that a little bit more as well.
And so this pattern of behavior went on for four years. You were forced to participate in terribly traumatic things where your body was treated as not your own.
And do you recall, did that create like a sense of dissociation or disconnection or, you mentioned like being unhappy and wanting to run away.
And of course, I think like that's the natural impulse. Like how do I get out of this situation that I feel absolutely trapped in?
[17:12] As we kind of move past this, because I suppose that there were situations there was you and other children down in that basement.
[17:23] Do you recall any of those kinds of interactions and did you ever communicate with kids, like if you were in the house upstairs at the same time, about maybe what had taken place?
Yeah, the memories that I have really are just of, you know, me and a couple of other kids being upstairs watching TV, and then no transition really, just me being downstairs in the basement with other kids.
And I do remember some very specific scenarios, but I remember specifically not making eye contact with any of the other children.
And it's funny you talk about dissociation because that tactic or that way of me protecting or my psyche protecting myself, dissociation was the way that I coped with this throughout my life.
And whenever I found myself in physically intimate situations for the rest of my life, there was definitely a dissociation.
There was a point where I would just shut down and let whatever was gonna happen happen because I didn't feel like I was allowed to be in control.
I didn't ever feel like I was allowed to say no to anybody. And so I ended up in a lot of other situations where I felt like I had no say in what was gonna happen and no control over my own body.
Abuse Unrelated to Faith Community
[18:38] And so those situations continue to plague me all the way into my adult life, and it was a lot, ended up being a lot to process through.
[18:49] And those that were abusing you, did they happen to be members of the faith community, the LDS faith community, or were they just neighbors down the street kind of thing?
They were not. or just neighbors down the street.
Okay, and so there was no sort of religious connection or anything like that made to what it was you were doing? No.
[19:07] And so at age of 11 your parents, You get moved away your dad's in the Air Force get to get shifted to another base and you get brought into a totally different environment, Yeah, actually by that time he was working for a Citibank. And so we we moved away. I I, he worked in New York city and we moved to Connecticut at that time.
And so I spent my middle school and high school years in Connecticut.
Leaving Behind the House of Horrors
[19:33] Random question, but did you, the last time that you were at the house of your users, were you aware that you were moving away and going to be taken out of the situation?
I don't think I was. And I know that they stopped babysitting us shortly before we moved, but also their house was right across the street from the neighborhood park where all of us spent a lot of time.
And so in the summertime, if we were over at the park and the man who lived in the house would come out and water his lawn, that was sort of a signal that us kids who knew were supposed to come over to the house.
And so even after the babysitting ended, we continued to be victimized just because he had that control over us.
I remember when my parents told me that we were moving, I just remember crying a lot because I was really sad that I was gonna be leaving behind my best friend who lived down the street and I was very sad about that.
But I think a lot of those tears were relief as well. I was so grateful to be leaving that place.
And was your best friend also victimized or was she spared from that?
She was spared. Yeah, yeah. So moving to a new place, you're already traumatized as a child.
[20:58] Which makes every human interaction infinitely more difficult. What did it feel like to go to a new school and what was it like to even try to form friendships for you? I was so excited to start trying to find new friends and to be in a new place and completely start over. Like that feeling was euphoric to me, to be in a totally new place and to be away from the horrors that I sort of had left behind.
And I was so excited when we first moved in and I started to get to know people and I was the new kid and that was exciting for other people.
But I very quickly got disabused of this, the new kid is the most exciting thing, because was Mormon and the first week that I was there, there was a dance at the school and I wasn't allowed to go because I wasn't old enough. And that sort of put me into a very particular social box and that's where I stayed for the rest of my middle school and high school years.
[21:59] And through those years, did you ever form any, I guess, intimate relationships?
And if so, you know, what sort of challenges did you encounter?
Yeah, I did. You know, I, like everybody who grows up, had crushes and people I was interested in.
And I think my first big experience with that was when I was a freshman in high school.
School. And there was a really kind and wonderful boy who really, really liked me a lot. And he was so good to me and so sweet to me. And I just had nowhere for that to land. I, didn't know how to handle it at all. And I ended up pushing him away because I just, I didn't know how to be treated that way.
Nobody had ever been so kind to me and had really seen me for who I was and I felt loved me for who I was.
And so, we were together, I say, quote unquote, together, we were young and so, we would call each other all the time, talk on the phone all the time, make each other mixtapes, that kind of stuff.
And we did that for several months, but it really just became too much for me to handle emotionally.
And I ended up ending the relationship, although we stayed friends and we are actually still friends today.
He's one of my oldest friends.
[23:26] That is really sweet to hear, actually. Yeah.
You know, it's nice when there's like a beautiful little story thread in what is an extremely difficult story as well.
[23:38] And so going through your teen years, did you experience anything like nightmares or anxiety or panic, or what sort of mental health struggles did you face?
And were you able, or did you understand at all this was connected to the abuse that you had suffered.
[23:55] So around the age of 13, I started to exhibit very marked symptoms of severe depression.
And I had all kinds of escapist fantasies about, you know, still about running away, about leaving my home. I was deeply unhappy, but I didn't really understand why.
And the way that I sort of describe this in my book is I talk about this phenomenon where, where, you know, people will say, okay, there's no way that you could go through life not remembering that that happened to you.
It's sort of like being bitten by a shark and not remembering being bitten by a shark.
And my response to that was, no, it's having an extreme fear of the water.
It's not really understanding why you can never go under the water because that doesn't feel safe to you.
It's getting triggered every time somebody talks about an animal attack.
[24:53] It's being able to remember the water being disturbed, but not being able to remember the teeth sinking in.
It's that sort of a feeling. So I had all of these symptoms of someone who had been sexually abused, but I had put, the memories, locked them away.
And so it was a lot of, you know, when I got into a creative writing class, the only things that I wanted to write about were sexual assault and abuse and, you know, abusive relationships and escaping and suicide and things like that. And those were the only things that I could really think about creatively, because that was what was on my mind all the time. But to answer your question about did I tie it back to the abuse, I didn't, because I just had always had this feeling that I'd been violated, but the specifics of it I put away for a really long time.
[25:49] And that, again, is something so incredibly crucial to to understand.
And I love how you reframed that analogy, because, again, for somebody who hasn't suffered through this, it's so incredibly difficult to, it doesn't like it doesn't make sense because they haven't lived that experience.
And they go, well, that's not how my brain works.
That this is how a brain works is you have an experience and then you remember it.
It's not like there's a blank spot in your life.
And so did you remember like the house, the abuser, that kind of thing?
Or did that kind of just get the erase room memory all together?
Oh, I remembered every detail about the house and about the woman who was the babysitter, the children, I could describe everything about that place in great detail.
But when it came to the basement, I could only see the door.
And that was what came up in my nightmares over and over was being outside the door, knowing that there was something on the other side that I needed to get to, but that I couldn't get there.
And when I first started therapy and started processing through that, it started gradually coming back to me. First, I remembered that there were people I cared about on the other side of the door that I was trying to rescue.
And then I remembered some of the things that happened in the room.
Then I remembered the people.
And then I remembered in great detail a lot of the things that happened.
[27:11] Yeah. And again, sometimes I just want to pause and let some of this sink in because I really want people to feel and experience some of this like, and I hope that if people are feeling like uncomfortable emotions or strong emotions around hearing this.
That's a good thing because it means maybe you have some capacity for empathy. And I hope that, people are gaining a greater understanding just as they've listened to you sharing your story.
And so as you graduated from high school, or when was it that you started therapy?
[27:42] Well, it's interesting. I had another boyfriend in high school whose family, they were going through therapy and, you know, the boys in that family were talking to their therapist about me and about, you know, our boyfriend-girlfriend relationship and everything. And at one point, the therapist asked, you know, can you guys please give me her number and let me talk to her?
And they did give me her number, but my parents would not allow me to get therapy services.
And so I sort of I filed that away and I sort of went somebody else's therapist wants to talk to me Maybe there's something that I need to work out, you know Maybe there's something there that they're seeing some kind of a red flag in my behavior. So I sort of filed that away, I didn't end up going to my own therapist until I was about 19 years old and at the time I was referred to a church therapist which the LDS Church used to have this program called LDS Family Services.
And it was church-based therapists, because it was very important to the church that you see a therapist who was going to encourage you to continue living the Mormon lifestyle, and who is going to encourage you to adopt the tenets of the faith as a means of healing.
[29:07] And unfortunately, my experience with that therapist was not good. I found out later that she was violating my privacy by telling my mom things that I had said in therapy. And just needless to say, it wasn't effective. I didn't, I didn't see any kind of results from that. I didn't feel better after talking to her. And I really felt wary of therapists in general after that because I thought, you know, if I can't trust somebody with these secrets, I don't want anybody to know. I don't want anybody else to know what I've been through. And so it took me a long time before I got to the place where I felt like I deserved to find a therapist outside of the church, that could really help me with the traumatic things. And so it took me until I was almost 35 before I was able to finally start therapy.
I just want to say, like, damn, like, I'm just, I'm like, I'm frustrated for younger you. Yeah.
And when I think about just the awful conflict of interest, like...
Breach of Privacy and Ethical Atrocities
[30:17] And the breach of privacy, like that a therapist would disclose, this is your story, your experience, in an extremely vulnerable, intimate, trusted environment that was being violated, because there was an unfortunate bias.
And for those that are listening, I am a Christian, but there's something terribly wrong about someone that is intimately connected to your faith community, gathering misinformation, and then breaching your privacy. That is ethically atrocious, to say the least.
And so I'm curious, though, now that the therapist was like basically spilling things to your mom.
[30:53] Did you identify again that this was connected to childhood abuse? And did your mom at that point become aware that you had suffered abuse as a child? I at that time didn't connect it to the childhood abuse. I connected it to the more recent experiences that I had. I was unfortunately in a date rape situation when I went away to college. And again, that was a product of me not feeling like I had a voice, like I was able to speak up for myself. And at the time.
[31:22] There was sort of this narrative in the church about sexual sin being the sin next to murder.
And there was a book that got put out at that time by one of the church authorities, that was, it was called The Miracle of Forgiveness. And it was sort of the textbook for repentance, and it was required reading for anybody who had committed sexual sin.
[31:47] And in that book, there was a part that basically said, you know, if you've been the victim of abuse, of course the abuse isn't your fault, but there is going to come a point where you're going to have to examine your role in what happened and see if you need to adjust your behavior.
So the narrative at that time very much was that the date rape was my fault, I put myself in a bad situation, and I had violated the law of chastity by having sex outside of marriage.
And so I had to go through the repentance process with my bishop, I was what they called disfellowshipped, which means that I couldn't speak or pray or sing in public in church.
And they held a disciplinary council for me, and I was basically shunned, if you want to put it that way, for about a year before I was allowed to be invited back into full fellowship.
And I think that's why she shared it with my mom, is because she wanted my mom to know that I had committed a sin and I needed to go through the repentance process.
[32:57] For those that are listening, you can't just see how hard I'm cringing right now as I listen to this, because there is just so much that is wrong about this situation that just, victim shaming to the nth degree.
And I know that I'm looking at this through an educated lens in 2023, as opposed to 20, 30 years earlier, but I still hear this and I go, how on earth did somebody not see that this was wrong to put this on your shoulders?
You did not put up your hand and say, I would like this to happen to me.
And somehow you better examine yourself and how you got in this situation.
[33:36] Just, oh, mind blowing. Yeah, very harmful. And some people may remember the very famous case of Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted from her home. And she was a member of the Mormon church.
And some of her interviews afterwards, they asked her why she didn't come forward and why she didn't try to escape her captors.
And her comment was that, you know, we were taught as youth in the Mormon church that if you had sex with somebody before marriage, that you were like a chewed up piece of gum and nobody would ever want you again.
And so that was the narrative that ran through my head throughout my growing up, you know, my teenage and young adult years, to the point where I, you know, I married somebody that I shouldn't have married, because that was what I believed I deserved. I believed I didn't deserve someone better than that, or somebody who would treat me better than that person did.
Leaving the Church: Freedom at University
[34:37] And you were what age when you left the church for the first time, and how long were you out?
So I graduated from high school when I was 17, and I went right away to the University of Connecticut, and that was when I stopped going to church because I was out of my parents' house for the first time, and I felt like I could do that without the complication of having to explain why why I was not going to church.
And so I was out for probably two, almost three years.
Leaving the Church and the Pursuit of Happiness
[35:11] Before I got married. And I enjoyed my time out of the church to the extent that I felt like I wasn't being shamed all the time.
[35:24] But also my life was really difficult and I was really unhappy.
And the narrative that we are fed in the Mormon church is that if you leave the church, you're never gonna find happiness outside of the church.
You're never gonna be happy if you're not following God's laws.
And so I put that on myself and said, well, I'm really deeply unhappy, so it must be because I'm not in the church.
[35:47] And I found this person who wanted to marry me and I wanted to get married and get out of my parents' house and so we decided to get engaged I went to my parents and told them that we were engaged and started talking about wedding plans, but he was not a member of the church. And my dad just stopped me and he said, this is not a celebration for us because I was not marrying a Mormon. And so I ended up breaking up with him, but then I found out a few weeks after we broke up that I was pregnant. And so, that to my parents was probably the worst thing that could happen to your child.
You know, there's even a part in that book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, that says, you know, most parents would rather see their children dead than to have committed a serious sexual sin.
And so I know for my parents, that was deeply disturbing to them.
So at that point, when I later found somebody that I was going to marry, they were perfectly fine with him not being a member because they just wanted me to right this wrong of having a child out of wedlock.
And so I ended up, you know, marrying this other person.
[37:00] Can you say that again? Like about, this book describes that a parent would prefer to see you dead than having committed this sin?
Troubling teachings and conflicting scriptures in the Mormon faith
[37:11] Yeah, it's deeply troubling. It's a deeply troubling teaching. But there's a part in that book and there's also a part in the Book of Mormon, which is a Book of Mormon scripture, that basically says that you would rather die than have your virtue robbed from you.
And so the actual wording in the book is that, you know, if you don't fight tooth and nail, you should fight to the death.
And if you don't fight to the death and you survive anyway, that's a pretty horrible set of circumstances.
So, you know, I just wonder, like, did they totally miss the part where like Jesus dealt with a woman, this kind of adultery, a woman that had like six wives and how he dealt with those individuals?
Is it just entirely lost? I mean, and you know, I'm not trying to be offensive to Mormon listeners, but I'm listening to this as a Christian and going, this is why Christianity gains like a terrible reputation when they hear stuff like this that is entirely unbiblical and unscriptural even.
And it's used as a tool of control and shame and coercion and guilt.
And there's just so much wrong with all of this experience.
And so, you decided to return to the church to try to see if you could find happiness again, and you remained a part of the church for, I think you said, 22 years, is that right?
[38:40] Yeah. And that would take you to about your mid-40s or so, you ever think?
Yeah, I raised all six of my children in the church.
You know, I was very devout. My husband joined the church and got baptized, but shortly, maybe three or four months later, decided it was not for him.
So he stopped coming.
So I took my kids to church every Sunday, made sure that they lived the Mormon life and checked all of the boxes in an effort, I think, to repair what I viewed as the wrongs of my youth and to try and make up for the things.
[39:14] That I felt I had offended God and was trying to find a way to...
I was taught that if I lived the commandments and I was faithful, that my sins would be forgiven and that I would be able to be loved by God again.
And so it wasn't really explicitly said that God's love is conditional, but what was said is that the fullness of God's approval is contingent upon your keeping the commandments.
And so that's what I was trying to do for all of those years.
And then when I was about, I want to say it was in my late 30s.
My dad contacted me and said that he wanted to sit down and talk about what kind of a dad he had been, and how that might've contributed to some of our unhappiness growing up.
And he wanted to sort of make amends about some things. And my initial reaction was absolutely not.
I do not wanna go back there. I'm out of that house.
Relationship is relatively good right now. And I just don't want to revisit any of that stuff.
[40:26] But I eventually agreed to do it. I talked to my sister and she said, you know, I had that talk with him. It actually went really well, helped me understand him better. So I did sit down with him and have a conversation. And it was mostly about the things that he was going through through when he was parenting us as children and maybe some of the reasons why he wasn't as present or involved or why he didn't really realize some of the emotional things that we were going through.
And that conversation basically sparked all of those old memories again and all of the things that I had sort of repressed and put away into different boxes all started spilling out at once. And I started having panic attacks and all kinds of physical symptoms. I was physically ill a lot of the time. I couldn't get out of bed for several days at a time. I couldn't stop crying.
And I finally said, okay, I'm not okay and I need to go get help. And that was when I finally, sought out therapy. I want to just highlight something here because I think what you're you're describing took place approximately 25 to 30 years after the abuse had taken place, all of this started coming out. And because there's people out there that go, why didn't you say something sooner?
[41:51] And I don't know if they understand that it takes the average victim somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 to 30 years to come forward and talk about their abuse. And in Canada, we're very fortunate because there's no statute of limitations when it comes to sexual crimes.
None. Because we actually recognize that this is what, you know, and in various U.S. states it's different and I wish it was just simply remove the statute of limitations around sexual crimes because this is exactly what happens. And so you're married, six kids, were you a stay-at-home mom because you had six kids to raise? I have two and I'm like, this is hard.
[42:29] Yeah, I stayed home as much as I possibly could. My former spouse though was trying to start his own internet business. And so for many years we had very little income. And so I kind of tried to to take jobs here and there as I could.
You know, I tried to do whatever I could to bring money in and eventually ended up getting a college degree, and becoming a teacher.
And so that finally, when I became a teacher, we finally had health insurance and some stable income and things like that.
So yeah, it was tough trying to raise six kids and juggle a business and all of that.
And I think part of that, it's part of the reason why I was able to stay in this mode for so long of not remembering my trauma because, you know, I got married when I was 20.
I already had a child from that previous relationship and immediately started having more children.
[43:34] And I was so busy all the time from dawn to dusk. And then also busy with my church responsibilities of, you know, I was a teacher in the church and, you know, had several music responsibilities and things like that.
So I was, I kept myself so busy all the time that I would fall into bed at night and just exhausted and get up early, early the next morning and just do it all again all day, every day for, you know, 20 years.
So there was no time for me to stop and think about how I was feeling or whether or not I felt happy or safe.
It was always just, if I keep doing it, if I keep doing this, if I keep doing my life this way, raising my kids this way, I'm gonna find happiness at some point.
[44:23] And so when this all started spilling out because I mean I'm listening to you describe your life and I'm thinking man your nervous system just getting Trashed for a lot of better term at this moment in time, right?
Just like dust at dawn driving it down And so I feel like there would just come this like breaking point where your nervous system basically pulls the fire alarm and goes That's it. We cannot keep doing this. So all this stuff kind of starts flooding out Uh kind of what age ranges were your kids in at that time? And and how did that affect?
I guess, the family dynamic going forward.
Yeah, my oldest daughter, I want to say, was around 15 at this time.
And so then it was 15, 12, 10, 8, 4, and a newborn baby.
And so it was, you know, of course, an incredibly busy time for me.
For me, that was the year that my sixth child was born was the year that I started teaching full-time.
And I was teaching in an inner city school which had its own set of challenges and emotional drain.
And I just remember, you know, this sort of happened in the springtime.
And I remember going to my OBGYN and telling her that I had postpartum depression.
[45:42] And she asked me to tell her about the circumstances of my life and I related all these things to her and she said, well, I think this is really situational, it'll probably just pass.
And so, you know, that was kind of the point where I said, okay, I can't really trust a medical professional to help me, I'm going to have to go get some therapeutic help.
And so that was, that was finally when I was able to start finding some healing.
And so you as you start to find healing you start to kind of piece together, What happened to you as a child in in the therapy room and and as that began to take place?
[46:21] Was there any disclosures to your family at all about any any of this sort of the nature of what you had experienced?
What's really interesting? Is that the main reason I went to see a therapist is because.
[46:33] The panic attacks I was having were happening around interactions with my parents.
We had dinner over there every Sunday night. So it was like the day before we had to have dinner, I was a mess and a wreck.
And then we'd go have dinner, everything would be fine. And then for two or three days afterwards, I was severely depressed and all of that.
And so I went into my therapist saying, I need to repair my relationship with my parents.
There's something wrong between us. And I don't know why I'm having all these panic attacks, but I can't stand to be around them.
And I ended up going no contact with my parents for a couple of years after that, because that was, you know, my therapist's recommendation is that if you keep interacting with them, you're gonna be re-traumatized by the way that they treat you.
And so I told them, you know, if you wanna see your grandkids, that's totally fine with me.
You'll have to communicate with their dad and arrange those things, but I can't see you.
I can't talk to you. I can't have emails, texts, phone calls, anything.
Until I heal this wound and let me work on this. So it was a long time of working on that.
As I was working on that.
I sort of came to the realization that my marriage was also abusive. It was the first time that I.
Recognizing Patterns of Abuse in Relationships
[47:54] Came to understand what emotional abuse was. And my therapist presented me with this little graphic that was a wheel, and it showed all the different types of abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse, financial abuse, you know, coercion, all of these different things.
[48:09] And as I started thinking about my relationship with my parents in the context of that wheel, I started recognizing, oh my gosh, this is what my marriage is like too. My marriage relationship is the same as this relationship I had with my parents. And so I ended up dealing with and working through a lot of the emotional and sometimes physical abuse that happened in my marriage first. And the memories of my childhood trauma sort of stayed in the background until I had really worked through all of that. So I, I ended up getting divorced, and I had stayed separated from my parents. And I was, it, this was just a talk therapy situation. We were doing CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. And I was doing that for about four years. And I got to a place where I felt like I was really comfortable. I felt safe. I felt like I was learning to love myself. But I still had these triggers. And I was expressing this frustration to my therapist. And she said, Well, maybe you're just going to continue to have triggers for the rest of your life. But you know how to manage them now. You have this toolbox, where you know how to deal with it. And she gave me this scenario, like you're at a party, somebody brings up a subject, it triggers you.
[49:30] You just excuse yourself and go into the bathroom and have a good cry and then clean yourself up and come back and say, I'm really sorry, something about that conversation just triggered me.
And I left that session, and I just went.
[49:43] No, absolutely not. I do not want to live my life like that. And so that's why I appreciate you talking to your listeners about triggers, because I really believe that our triggers exist to help teach us the things that we need to work on. And so I started seeking out therapy that was specifically geared towards trauma and sexual trauma, because I knew it had been sexual trauma.
I just didn't know exactly how or when or why and all the pieces of that I hadn't put together So I found EMDR therapy and once I started that, I was able to really process everything from my childhood came back and my young adult Experiences and I was able to process through it. So that's why now as, As an adult I'm able to look back on those experiences and the EMDR therapy, has removed the negative emotions from those experiences so I can talk about them without getting emotionally triggered.
Not that it's not difficult to talk about still because like you say, it's just horrific to have to imagine going through that, but I am not destabilized by it.
I can finish our interview and then go on with the rest of my day and be emotionally intact.
[51:06] And thank you for sharing that part of it as well, because I know, again, some of my work in terms of advocating for victims of abuse and trauma in a different context.
We have to be very mindful of this and make sure that they, you know, depending where they're at in their journey, sometimes it's healing for them to actually share their story, even though they're still traumatized by sharing their story, but to hear it and be heard and to hear advocates say, I love you, I believe you, I support you, I'm here for you.
[51:36] And so the victims themselves have spoken and said, we want people to hear our stories because, but now on the flip side of that, and I don't wanna do a rabbit hole, but there is some controversy around EMDR. Some people have.
Like say, maybe allege that EMDR can be difficult or re-traumatizing for people as well, so maybe they disagree with that modality. Looking back, how do you feel about that modality? Do you feel like it's the reason why you're here today, able to share your story? What would you say to people who might challenge this idea that EMDR is re-traumatizing a victim? I will say in my experience, EMDR absolutely saved my life. I was suicidal and there was no way that I was going to come out of that dark hole that I was in if I didn't process the trauma.
[52:23] That being said, however, I don't think EMDR is for everyone. It's a modality that should only be explored with a very qualified EMDR specialist. And it needs to be done, you know, in an exploratory way before you ever process anything to see if it's something that fits for the way that your brain processes emotions, and the type of trauma that you have and where you are in your healing journey. I don't think I could have done EMDR without having first done those four years of talk therapy, because that put me in a really safe emotional space first. And then I was able to do the hard work because EMDR really was difficult. I left the sessions often feeling incredibly drained. I would often have, you know, sort of echo nightmares the night after I processed and the next day was, very difficult to function for me. And so it was draining. But I will say after those side effects wore off, I felt like a rock star every time. It was just amazing to me how quickly like a switch flipped and it was miraculous to me.
[53:45] So yes, it's not for everybody, But yes, it also saved my life.
Navigating Side Effects and Finding Support
[53:50] Thank you. I love that context. I think it's so important to hear and I think you framed it beautifully. Now, I just wanted to ask, how did you, when you were experiencing some of the side effects, I think you said echo nightmares, among other things, how did you navigate through that and what helped you, if you knew that you were going to experience this after a session, helped you go to that next session? I always had, I had a little post-session ritual that I did that It was very much a self-care routine that was set up beforehand so that I knew I had that to look forward to.
And I also had a very close support group of friends that I knew that I could call on, people that knew kind of what I was going through and were able to support me in the specific ways in which I needed to be supported.
And again, all of that was set up prior to me going into therapy so that I knew coming out of it that I had all of these support systems in place.
And my therapist was really good about helping me to do calming exercises and helping me to have like a safe space in my mind that I could go to if I was starting to experience triggering symptoms.
[55:04] So all of that was put into place prior to so that when I left, I had a ritual that I went through that was very methodical.
I had a way of calming myself down before bed.
And I just prepared myself to say, like, this is sort of like coming out of anesthesia.
I'm gonna have some negative side effects for a little while, but it will go away.
And when it does, I'm gonna feel a lot better.
[55:27] And you said something there that I think is really, really interesting.
I had a safe space in my mind to go to.
And you can sort of correct me if I'm off the mark a bit here, but I kind of imagine maybe you start to experience some of these side effects, and maybe you can say to yourself, I know that you're there, and I'm going to process you in the next session.
So I'm gonna put you in this box while I go over here. Is it something like that?
It was absolutely just like that. And it was very much recognizing the emotion that was coming up for me and honoring it.
And saying to myself, I'm feeling a lot of grief right now about the time that I lost in my life where I was victimized and couldn't fully experience life.
And it's a perfectly valid emotion for me to have that.
And I'm grateful for feeling that because it teaches me that that time was important to me and it helps me assign an importance to the time that I now have now that I'm not traumatized.
And so I'm gonna honor the emotion of grief. I'm gonna thank it for what it teaches me.
And now I'm gonna set it aside and recognize that I'm gonna come back to it at a time when I have my therapist with me.
[56:37] That was so beautifully expressed. If people need to go back and just listen to the way that you expressed that again, I think that would be incredible. And I love how you just expressed, you know, there's this present appreciation for the time that you have given to you now because of what you've experienced. And so I'm wondering, as you, piece together like what happened to you, and maybe there's still some things that are to this day that are kind of fragmented, but you're fully aware that you experienced this trauma from 7 to to 11 as a child, have you been able to express to your parents what really took place or your siblings, or I guess they're probably gonna hear your stories one way or another because you are public about this.
You've written a book, which I think everybody should listen to.
We'll make sure we talk about that again, because I think this would be a gripping read for anybody just having interviewed you.
[57:26] But what do they know about this and maybe how have they kind of reconciled this with you and what you've experienced you know, your parents, your siblings, maybe even your kids?
Yeah, I have talked with my parents about it, of course. You know, no parent is going to hear that their child has been victimized or traumatized and not have some measure of guilt.
I've done the very best that I can to be very gentle with my parents about that, to make sure that they know that it's not their fault.
And this is what I wish people would understand more about trafficking and sexual abuse is that, You know, I slept in my own bed every night.
I went to school, I went to church, I played soccer, I had friends.
You know, I did all the normal things that any kid would do, but none of the adults in my life knew that I was being victimized.
And that's what it looks like a lot of time. It's much more frequent than someone being abducted, away from their home.
And the way that children are victimized most now is online.
And so it's very possible for that to be going on and for the adults not to know.
So to answer your question, yes, I've talked to my parents about it a lot.
I've talked to my siblings about it.
[58:42] One of my siblings is very vehement, vehemently trying to discredit my story, discredit me to deny that the abuse happened.
And I'm sure that that has something to do some of the things that he needs to fix in his life. And so I'm just going to leave that alone and let it take its natural course. But I will say, you know, not everybody who I've told about my abuse has believed me and that is another re-traumatization that's difficult to deal with.
But writing my book was a way for me to put all of that down on paper.
And I wrote it because when I was experiencing all of those symptoms, I believed that I would never feel better.
And I want other survivors to know that it is possible to come out of that and to not only survive it, but to thrive and have a happy life.
My relationship with my children is really beautiful. they all know about the abuse. I've spoken with them about it. And my older children have read my book. And so they have experienced that as well. My younger children, not quite yet.
[59:58] But we talk openly about it. And we talk openly about what has happened in the healing process.
And I've talked very openly with my kids about the fact that I wish I had found healing sooner so that I could have been the kind of mom that they needed when they were younger. So my older kids got a very different mom than my younger kids have gotten now. And I've had to forgive myself for that. And I've had to, you know, allow that to take its natural course and to just say, you know, now that I know better, I can do better, and I can still show up for my older children in the ways that they need me now.
[1:00:36] And I think what a beautiful gift to be able to give them this level of awareness, understanding.
And as difficult as it is to look back and think, I wish I could have done better. And I think just naturally, every parent will want to look back and say, I wish I could have done better for my kids. But to go to them, and then there's this moment of connection where you say, I can't go back and change that. But they feel how much you desire to have this beautiful relationship with them and it actually creates a new like level of meaningful connection with them and and I think it's what a beautiful gift to give to your kids. You know the last sort of thread I wanted to kind of tie up here as we bring this to a close. I'm like gee I could just we could go for their two hours but I so appreciate your time and your openness. This is just an incredibly powerful interview and story but the individuals that victimized you, was there ever any like any sort of like a recourse? Did you ever encounter them again in life? Did you ever want to encounter them again and, you know, mete out some vengeance? Were they ever convicted? What is sort of the resolution or the current status of that situation? Well, my EMDR processing really left me with with no desire to pursue any type of vengeance.
Letting Go of Anger and Seeking Closure
[1:01:58] It was all of my feelings of anger towards my abusers have dissipated.
And I'm in a place where I believe that God or the universe is gonna take care of, you know, meeting out whatever it is that they need to experience.
And I sort of, through meditation and things, to this place where I just asked myself, what if hell is actually us just having to go back and experience all the times that we caused someone pain in our lives.
[1:02:36] If that's the case, then that is enough of a punishment to, you know, to be in that moment and to know that something that you did caused somebody else pain. And I sort of hope that that's what it's going to be like. That's my own little invention. About three years ago, I was able to go back and sort of look these people up again. I came across the obituary of the male abuser, so I know that he's passed away.
The female abuser is still, whether she was directly involved or not, I don't know, but she is still around.
And I did file a police report.
Unfortunately, no other victims have come forward. And so, and of course, you know, she denies having any involvement.
So absent any kind of hard evidence, there's really nothing that the police can do about it at this point.
And I feel very peaceful with the fact that I have spoken up and told my story and that I made the report.
And therefore, if anyone else does choose to come forward, that my report will be there to corroborate what they say.
And I feel very peaceful about the actions that I've taken to try and speak up and have justice.
[1:03:56] Yeah, and I'm so glad that you shared that because things that I wish people would understand is the ability to get a conviction in situations like this is immensely low.
The bar is so high.
And so if ever a child speaks up, you must listen and you must believe them because the rate of children lying about this is like less than 1%.
[1:04:22] Children don't even really have the capacity to make this stuff up.
And this isn't to make anybody feel ashamed if anything's happened to their children or even to themselves.
But if we could ever do something different moving forward, it's like we must listen to our children.
And the other thing is that, as we talked about earlier, that abusers don't fit a preconceived idea.
And it doesn't always take place in the most horrifying ways.
You know, I've interviewed the executive director of Saving Innocence, which actually fights for victims of child sex trafficking as well. And I'm so grateful that you have highlighted that most victims don't look like the ones that they're fighting for in that experience. They live what appears to be a normal life. And this is why we experience cognitive dissonance around, like, this couldn't have happened to you. It's just, it's absolutely not possible. And I think, again, because of the powerful and beautiful place and space that you're in now, even those who say, I don't believe you, I would like to think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would like, to think that you're able to at least express or feel a sense of compassion towards them, because maybe you have now an understanding of why they might actually have cognitive dissonance around it. And that's not to excuse their stance or position of disbelief, but at least you understand it, which allows you to make peace and move on from that.
Shifting Society's Response: Believing Victims, Investigating Allegations
[1:05:44] Yeah, I definitely understand why people don't believe victims.
I think we need to make a shift in our society where we stop believing the narrative that people come forward with false allegations more often than they really do.
I think it's tragic when we hear someone speak about something abusive and we don't believe them.
And of course, innocent until proven guilty is, you know, I'm big on that too.
We do need to investigate things, but I think when we start with believing victims, that is the most empathetic and kind and human way to respond.
If we find out later that someone has made up allegations, then we need to ask why, and you know, what other hurt was going on that caused that to happen?
One of the things that helps me understand people better is to know that when a victim comes forward and the immediate inclination is not to believe them.
[1:06:51] All of that is rooted in some kind of a fear. You know, maybe we're afraid to admit that this happens more often than we want to think it does. And maybe we're afraid that it's happening in our own community. Maybe we're afraid that our children are being groomed. And we need to confront that fear and make a space where we say, okay, I am afraid that this is going to happen to someone that I love. So what do I do instead? We can educate ourselves about what grooming looks like. And one of the best ways that as parents that we can prevent this happening from our children to our children is to show up as a strong and present adult in our children's lives.
If we as parents are having one-on-one conversations with every single adult that that interacts with our children, the chances that they're gonna be groomed by that adult, are exponentially lower because a predator will not engage with a child, who has strong and present people in their lives because it's too much of a threat to them.
The Power of Love and Emotional Stability
[1:08:03] I love that. And I think about my own children and how I show up for them and with them.
And I wanna give them the greatest sense of emotional stability.
One thing I know that they're absolutely assured of is they're powerfully loved.
And I'm so grateful that even like I have this this sort of experience and education that I do because it gives me this confidence, you know, and what I can say about sort of false accusations is it's between two and eight percent.
It's very, very low.
But I love how you also framed that we shouldn't just say, well, you're a bad person because you made a false accusation, but there would be a reason behind that behavior.
But let's take a step back and say 92 to 98 percent of allegations are real and true and valid, and wonder why is it, I think you expressed that beautifully too, why is it we want to not believe that when it's overwhelmingly that these things are true when they come forward, and even if something was false, there's something likely that has taken place there that needs to be resolved. Incredibly powerful stuff. And I mean, last thing I'll mention is just I've spent time, a number of conversations with private investigators around things like this, and I can tell you that a skilled investigator has virtually no difficulty in detecting something that would be false. It becomes apparent quite clearly in speaking with experienced investigators who spent 40 years investigating sexual crimes, and so it must be turned over to them instead of saying, I don't believe it, because a skilled investigator knows how to parse it, whether something's true or not.
[1:09:31] Wow, Megan, I really want to make sure that we plug your book because I think everybody should not only read this book, but share this book with other people, this powerful, powerful story.
What is the title of your book and where can people get that?
My first book is called I Walked Through Fire to Get Here and it is available on Amazon.
I also have a second book that I put out just recently called 100 Ways to Practice Self-Care, and that discusses some of the rituals I talked about in my post-therapy. So those two are both available on Amazon. They're also available, you can actually download a free chapter of my book if you want to kind of test it out first at my website, which is third-verse.com.
[1:10:15] And I'll make sure that's included in the show notes as well. And I think to read, like people should be reading both of these, because especially those, even if you yourself or not a victim of trauma, reading this to gain this level of understanding about what it's like for a victim and then even for those who either have experience or are supporting someone to to see here's all these tools that you yourself can be empowered with in conjunction with or alongside the professional therapy that you're able to access and lastly I think just saying, don't be afraid to look for a different therapist if you're not getting the help you need from that therapist. You are your own best advocate and it's so so important that you do that.
Megan, I want to give you the last word here. Someone has listened to this very, very powerful and meaningful conversation today.
And, you know, what would you like someone to take away from this today?
Healing and Embracing Life's Challenges
[1:11:05] Well, the biggest takeaway that I hope that people get is especially survivors of any kind of trauma, is that it is possible to heal and to have a beautiful life.
I love this quote by Rilke that says, he was a German poet, and it says, let everything happen to you, terror and beauty, nothing is forever.
[1:11:29] And I think if we allow ourselves to experience everything that life throws at us and know that it's not always going to be sunshine and roses, and know that that no feeling is final, And those feelings of despair that we come across when we experience trauma and loss, those feelings are there to teach us things, and they will leave us eventually. And we can choose to look inward and heal, and that enables us to look outward for connection with other human beings.
I love that. Megan, thank you so much for all that you're doing. Thank you for your time today. It's truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you so much for tuning in to Between the Before and After. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review because that helps, this podcast to reach and inspire more people. I love exploring the stories that, take place between the before and after, the powerful experiences that shape who, we become, and I love human potential. I love the possibilities that lie within us. So whatever you may be up against, I hope these stories inspire you because, If you're still here, your story's not done yet, so keep moving forward.
